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Why Fei-Fei Li and Yann LeCun are both betting on "world models"

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Re: Why Fei-Fei Li and Yann LeCun are both betting on "world models"

#71
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Language, and especially its mechanics like grammar, are entirely a distraction w.r.t. "cogito ergo sum". The underlying argument it points to is language-independent.

Correct. Here is the stub of a reply I can't be assed to finish right now: Words and language refer to sensations (P.I. §244: "How do words refer to sensations?"). Sensations can exist independently of language to refer to them (P.I. §256: "—But suppose I didn’t have any natural expression for the sensation, but only had the sensation?"). Thus it can be possible for one to experience the cogito, the mere act of aware…

I note that you keep saying "cogito" without the "ergo."

"I think therefore I am" is invalid, and what's wrong with it is the "therefore," the idea that you knew one thing, and you drew a "logical" conclusion from it, in a "prior to language" environment where words have no meaning, where "true" and "false" are indistinguishable, and logic is impossible.

Logic requires words. "Logical" means "verbal," from the Greek logos (λόγος). You can't have a logical argument (you can't draw a conclusion) from the instantaneous standpoint of someone "experiencing" cogito, where words mean whatever you want, or nothing at all.

The experience you're having is not a logical argument. As a sentence, "cogito ergo sum" is invalidated as soon as you write it down in a shared language.

I'm sure it feels right to you! But you can't actually say anything true about it in English, or Latin, or any other shared language.

Thereof, you simply must remain silent.

Re: Why Fei-Fei Li and Yann LeCun are both betting on "world models"

#72
post #59
post #47

LLMs are parameter based representations of linguistic representations of the world. Relative to robot predictive control problems, they are low dimensional and static. They are batch trained using supervised learning and are not designed to manage real time shifts in the external world or the reward space. They work because they operate in abstract, rule governed spaces like language and mathematics. They are ill su…

See, I don't get why people say that the world is somehow more complex than the world of mathematics. I think that is because people don't really understand what mathematics is. A computer game for example is pure mathematics, minus the players, but the players can also be modelled just by their observed digital inputs / outputs. So the world of mathematics is really the only world model we need. If we can build a se…

Representing concepts from the real world in terms of mathematics, is exactly what an AI model is internally.

Re: Why Fei-Fei Li and Yann LeCun are both betting on "world models"

#73
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct. Here is the stub of a reply I can't be assed to finish right now: Words and language refer to sensations (P.I. §244: "How do words refer to sensations?"). Sensations can exist independently of language to refer to them (P.I. §256: "—But suppose I didn’t have any natural expression for the sensation, but only had the sensation?"). Thus it can be possible for one to experience the cogito, the mere act of aware…

I note that you keep saying "cogito" without the "ergo." "I think therefore I am" is invalid, and what's wrong with it is the "therefore," the idea that you knew one thing, and you drew a "logical" conclusion from it, in a "prior to language" environment where words have no meaning, where "true" and "false" are indistinguishable, and logic is impossible. Logic requires words. "Logical" means "verbal," from the Greek…

    For, on the one hand, there is the real world, and on the other,
    a whole system of symbols about that world which we have in our minds.
    These are very very useful symbols; all civilization depends on them;
    but like all good things they have their disadvantages, and the
    principle disadvantage of symbols is that we confuse them with reality,
    just as we confuse money with actual wealth; and our names about
    ourselves, our ideas of ourselves, our images of ourselves, *with*
    ourselves.

    Now of course, reality, from a philosopher's point of view, is a
    dangerous word. A philosopher will ask me, what do I mean by reality?
    Am I talking about the physical world of nature, or am I talking about
    a spiritual world, or what?
    
    And to that I have a very simple answer. When we talk about the material
    world, that is actually a philosophical concept - so in the same way, if
    I say that reality is spiritual, that's also a philosophical concept -
    and reality itself is not a concept.

    Reality is - [...]

    ... and we won't give it a name.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJYp-mWqB1w

See also: "the TAO that can be named is not the true TAO;" or, Crowley in Konx om Pax on the "fools who mistake names for things."

Re: Why Fei-Fei Li and Yann LeCun are both betting on "world models"

#74
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I note that you keep saying "cogito" without the "ergo." "I think therefore I am" is invalid, and what's wrong with it is the "therefore," the idea that you knew one thing, and you drew a "logical" conclusion from it, in a "prior to language" environment where words have no meaning, where "true" and "false" are indistinguishable, and logic is impossible. Logic requires words. "Logical" means "verbal," from the Greek…

For, on the one hand, there is the real world, and on the other, a whole system of symbols about that world which we have in our minds. These are very very useful symbols; all civilization depends on them; but like all good things they have their disadvantages, and the principle disadvantage of symbols is that we confuse them with reality, just as we confuse money with actual wealth; and our names about ourselves, ou…

I think we might be on the same page at last.

The last refuge of the Cartesian is always, "My argument is correct in an ineffable way that I couldn't possibly write down."

"Cogito ergo sum" presents itself as a self-evident deduction, the one guaranteed universally agreeable truth, but, when you investigate it a little… oh, well, it's really more of a vibe than an argument, and isn't "logical argument" really a monkey-mind distraction from the indescribable lightness of existence?

Mu, indeed.

Re: Why Fei-Fei Li and Yann LeCun are both betting on "world models"

#75
post #59
post #47

LLMs are parameter based representations of linguistic representations of the world. Relative to robot predictive control problems, they are low dimensional and static. They are batch trained using supervised learning and are not designed to manage real time shifts in the external world or the reward space. They work because they operate in abstract, rule governed spaces like language and mathematics. They are ill su…

See, I don't get why people say that the world is somehow more complex than the world of mathematics. I think that is because people don't really understand what mathematics is. A computer game for example is pure mathematics, minus the players, but the players can also be modelled just by their observed digital inputs / outputs. So the world of mathematics is really the only world model we need. If we can build a se…

This view of simulation is just wrong and does not correspond at all to human perception.

Firstly, games aren't mathematics. They are low quality models of physics. Mathematics can not say what will happen in reality, mathematics can only describe a model and say what happens in the model. Just mathematics can not say anything about the real world, so a world model just doing mathematics can not say anything about the world either.

Secondly, and far worse for your premise, is that humans do not need these mathematical models. I do not understand the extremely complex mechanical problem of opening a door, to open a door. A world model which tries to understand the world based on mathematics has to. This makes any world model based on mathematics strictly inferior and totally unsuited to the goals.

Re: Why Fei-Fei Li and Yann LeCun are both betting on "world models"

#76
post #59
post #47

LLMs are parameter based representations of linguistic representations of the world. Relative to robot predictive control problems, they are low dimensional and static. They are batch trained using supervised learning and are not designed to manage real time shifts in the external world or the reward space. They work because they operate in abstract, rule governed spaces like language and mathematics. They are ill su…

See, I don't get why people say that the world is somehow more complex than the world of mathematics. I think that is because people don't really understand what mathematics is. A computer game for example is pure mathematics, minus the players, but the players can also be modelled just by their observed digital inputs / outputs. So the world of mathematics is really the only world model we need. If we can build a se…

The world of mathematics is only a language. The (Platonic) concepts go from simple to very complex, but at the base stands a (dynamic and evolving) language.

The real world however is far more complex and perhaps rooted in a universal language, but in one we don’t know (yet) and ultimately try to describe and order by all scientific endeavors combined.

This philosophy is an attempt to point out that you can create worlds from mathematics, but we are far from describing or simulating ‘Our World’ (Platonic concept) in mathematics.

Re: Why Fei-Fei Li and Yann LeCun are both betting on "world models"

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a lot of words to claim that language has exist before thought can, which gets disproved in an instant when your audience points to the large number of fauna on earth that has no language and yet displays thought.

That's not what I'm arguing. The argument is that "cogito ergo sum" is invalid, which is part of an argument against the existence of a "mind" above and beyond what the brain does in a living body. The atoms are all there is. I don't think I have a "mind" above and beyond my body, and I don't think you do, either. Animals can remember stuff, solve puzzles, and express pain, just like you or I do. We do all that with…

The problem with making universal assertions as opposed to existential assertions is that a single counterexample is all that is necessary to prove the assertion is incorrect or wrong.

> That's not what I'm arguing.

Okay; your argument is difficult to digest because, unlike most philosophy arguments, you neither lead nor end with the actual thesis; you present a book-length text as support for a thesis that is never stated.

> The argument is that "cogito ergo sum" is invalid, which is part of an argument against the existence of a "mind" above and beyond what the brain does in a living body. The atoms are all there is.

What's your thesis, then? "Cogito ergo sum is invalid" is hardly a thesis. Maybe you are asserting that there is no "mind" above and beyond the living brain, which will be a universal claim not an existential one.

If that is indeed your claim, then it's not a testable/falsifiable one anyway; you are going to require instead a sequence of premises that are each accepted by the audience you wish to sway, with intermediate conclusions that are likewise accepted by the audience, before you present your final conclusion based exclusively on the premises list.

A narrative is not a good way to present a philosophical argument, especially when it is a counter argument to an argument that was presented (even if only verbally at the time) in the standard logical format I described.

A better way to convince that any formally presented logic (as Cogito ergo sum was) is invalid (or unsound) is to attack the premises. It is not normal to ignore the premises of the original argument and present premises of your own.

(PS. It's been a long time since I was in a formal logic philosophy class and maybe things have changed, but they haven't (I hope!) changed so much that logic is completely thrown out the window in favour of narrative)

Re: Why Fei-Fei Li and Yann LeCun are both betting on "world models"

#80
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no mind Interesting. What is your response to the cogito?

The canonical 20th-century response to "cogito ergo sum" is Wittgenstein's "private-language argument." https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/private-language/ When you thought to yourself, "I think therefore I am," in what language did you think it? In English? The English language is an artifact of a community of English speakers. You can't have a language with grammatical rules without a community of speakers to make…

> I thought it in a private language known only to me.

That's so obviously a straw man.

I would say that our thoughts can be without language.

But you do make a point that we have also learned to add a layer of language-based thoughts/thinking on top of that.

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