Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

defensemirror.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–120 of 227 posts

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#111

Post by torginus »

jacquesm wrote: post #2

There will be a lot more decisions like this one. For the war in Ukraine and anything immediate they will buy American stuff if there is no EU alternative (and for many things there just isn't right now, there are too many dependencies). But the tide has changed, for 'in' it is now to 'out'. It is abundantly clear the USA is no longer a dependable ally, and that it will use all kinds of strings attached to hobble wha…

And weirdly enough, most of the sanctions have been softened, or rolled back - there's been little effort on the US side to build up domestic production capability outside of semiconductors - a process that began well under the Biden admin.

Another curious thing is despite how the US has been acting in this manner, their stock market still continues to outperform everybody else's

Turns out even if you have as much power as the US president with their executive orders, if you start making stupid or insufficiently well-prepared policy decisions, you have to roll them back or your country will crash into the ground.

Kind of makes me think that supposedly autocratic leaders of powerful countries have much less power than we thought - once they make a couple stupid decisions, their countries start going down the drain.

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#112

Post by w10-1 »

jacquesm wrote: post #2

There will be a lot more decisions like this one. For the war in Ukraine and anything immediate they will buy American stuff if there is no EU alternative (and for many things there just isn't right now, there are too many dependencies). But the tide has changed, for 'in' it is now to 'out'. It is abundantly clear the USA is no longer a dependable ally, and that it will use all kinds of strings attached to hobble wha…

An independent Europe is easier for China to dominate.

Now that NATO is in question, you'll start to hear about US manipulation of the SWIFT banking system, so Europe will start pushing for an international one, which China will eventually control.

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#113

Post by walletdrainer »

jleyank wrote: post #80
walletdrainer wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The F35 is also just a much better plane.

The F35 is a fighter-bomber/light-bomber. Others are air superiority platforms. Different tools for different situations.

F35 has far better bvr capabilities than the eurofighter and in practice ends up being far more useful in the air superiority role.

Eurofighter is really only good for peacetime patrols, the F35 will detect and shoot down enemies in real conflict far before the Eurofighter can do anything.

In a bizarre hypothetical conflict you would certainly not want to engage a F35 in an Eurofighter, the Eurofighter would be knocked out of the sky long before it could even see the F35. It certainly couldn’t turn on it’s radar.

There are extensive public studies available from e.g. the Danish government that ended up with the conclusion that the F35 is far superior in air-to-air combat. https://www.fmn.dk/globalassets/fmn/dokumenter/strategi/kamp...

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#114

Post by WanderPanda »

w10-1 wrote: post #112
jacquesm wrote: post #2

There will be a lot more decisions like this one. For the war in Ukraine and anything immediate they will buy American stuff if there is no EU alternative (and for many things there just isn't right now, there are too many dependencies). But the tide has changed, for 'in' it is now to 'out'. It is abundantly clear the USA is no longer a dependable ally, and that it will use all kinds of strings attached to hobble wha…

An independent Europe is easier for China to dominate. Now that NATO is in question, you'll start to hear about US manipulation of the SWIFT banking system, so Europe will start pushing for an international one, which China will eventually control.

SWIFT is Belgian, though?

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#115

Post by generic92034 »

lawn wrote: post #39
saubeidl wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US doesn't really see Russia as an adversary under Trump. Which begs the question, why should the EU see China as an adversary? That's mostly an American thing, the Pacific doesn't really concern us. Maybe alliances will reshuffle in the future?

Democracies and authoritarian regimes naturally oppose each other, which is why the EU and China will never be true allies. Coincidentally it's also why the US and EU are growing further apart.

> Coincidentally it's also why the US and EU are growing further apart.

That is not a given, as there are many authoritarian political parties in European countries growing in size and influence. Possibly Europe is only the usual decade or two behind the US developments? Well, I at least hope it does not come to this.

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#116

Post by mensetmanusman »

jacquesm wrote: post #2

There will be a lot more decisions like this one. For the war in Ukraine and anything immediate they will buy American stuff if there is no EU alternative (and for many things there just isn't right now, there are too many dependencies). But the tide has changed, for 'in' it is now to 'out'. It is abundantly clear the USA is no longer a dependable ally, and that it will use all kinds of strings attached to hobble wha…

Both parties in the US will celebrate the EU being more independent militarily.

We are in a multipolar world with the dominance of China incoming and the western nations need to spread capability.

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#117

Post by generic92034 »

linhns wrote: post #101
generic92034 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's the same shit with the Baltic states and other former Soviet satellite states. They're terrified of Russia, but people in Germany or further West think it's all overblown propaganda and there's nothing to fear from Russia. And that is why Germany is moving a whole Brigade to Lithuania? I think only Spain and Portugal are not appropriately concerned with the Russian threat.

Ireland comes to say hello. They somehow let a Russian sub operate freely in their waters.

That sounds more like a one-time failure, though. I am hesitant to see that as a proof that the Irish government does not take the Russian threat seriously.

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#118

Post by philwelch »

saubeidl wrote: post #99
philwelch wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, Donald Trump has broken a sufficiently large number of treaties Which?

Iran Nuclear Accords (negotiated by the EU!), Paris Climate Agreement are two that come to mind concerning the EU. There's obviously more, like NAFTA.

Iran and Paris weren’t treaties. Neither of them were ever ratified by the Senate.

Trump didn’t break NAFTA, he renegotiated it. NAFTA remained in effect until the new treaty, USMCA, came into effect.

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#119

Post by saubeidl »

philwelch wrote: post #118
saubeidl wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iran Nuclear Accords (negotiated by the EU!), Paris Climate Agreement are two that come to mind concerning the EU. There's obviously more, like NAFTA.

Iran and Paris weren’t treaties. Neither of them were ever ratified by the Senate. Trump didn’t break NAFTA, he renegotiated it. NAFTA remained in effect until the new treaty, USMCA, came into effect.

See, this is exactly what I mean.

In international law, they were treaties. Your internal squabbles do not concern us and just make you look unreliable.

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#120

Post by anthonybsd »

eduction wrote: post #44
jacquesm wrote: post #2

There will be a lot more decisions like this one. For the war in Ukraine and anything immediate they will buy American stuff if there is no EU alternative (and for many things there just isn't right now, there are too many dependencies). But the tide has changed, for 'in' it is now to 'out'. It is abundantly clear the USA is no longer a dependable ally, and that it will use all kinds of strings attached to hobble wha…

> It is abundantly clear the USA is no longer a dependable ally An extreme and inaccurate statement. The US is still party to NATO Article 5, meaning the blood of our young people is pledged to be shed to defend, say, Estonia. That has not changed. What has changed is the US has become more realistic and up front about the limitations of its reduced military. It’s not healthy, for the US /or/ Europe, to indulge the i…

>An extreme and inaccurate statement. The US is still party to NATO Article 5, meaning the blood of our young people is pledged to be shed to defend, say, Estonia. That has not changed.

Before making chest-thumping proclamations of this sort perhaps you'd best read the text of article 5:

-- If a member is attacked, other members will take "such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area".

See the part where it says "such action it deems necessary"? Trump may decide that the necessary action is to go play golf. He's gone back and forth on his commitment to European defense a number of times over the years, so there's really no reason to believe that his he won't change his mind on it before breakfast tomorrow.

Post reply on HN