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European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

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Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#81

Post by saubeidl »

Yokolos wrote: post #66
barbazoo wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here. I’m not scared of China either and am excited for them to take more responsibility on the international stage. Hopefully US warmongering will come to an end too.

Yes, I'm sure all the countries around China are really excited and looking forward to this. Oh, wait ... It's the same shit with the Baltic states and other former Soviet satellite states. They're terrified of Russia, but people in Germany or further West think it's all overblown propaganda and there's nothing to fear from Russia. You being ignorant doesn't mean there aren't real issues and real, justified fears.

The thing is - the Baltic states are in our sphere of influence, so Russia messing with them is a problem for us.

Tell me why we should care about some island on the other end of the world.

It would make sense to begrudgingly accept it, just like we did US military adventures in South America.

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#82

Post by BartjeD »

poszlem wrote: post #55
jacquesm wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Talk to me in 10 years or so. Changes can be very bad if they are rapid.

I firmly believe people are deluding themselves if they think that without US patronage, Europe wouldn't devolve into its historical norm, a state of internal warfare. The popular narrative suggests a 'United States of Europe' is forming, but this seems like propaganda when you look at the reality, nations are already returning to the historical status quo, prioritizing their own agendas and pulling in separate direc…

Joint EU debt isn't new, it already exists. Investments etc..

I don't think your narrative is as informed as you make it out to be.

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#83

Post by ur-whale »

nxor wrote: post #30
jacquesm wrote: post #2

There will be a lot more decisions like this one. For the war in Ukraine and anything immediate they will buy American stuff if there is no EU alternative (and for many things there just isn't right now, there are too many dependencies). But the tide has changed, for 'in' it is now to 'out'. It is abundantly clear the USA is no longer a dependable ally, and that it will use all kinds of strings attached to hobble wha…

[flagged]

> Your news routinely picks and chooses what to report on, leading to a slightly distorted understanding

You are not wrong, the european press hugely distorts and manipulates, but this is also textbook pot calling the kettle black: the american press is no better in that regard, and actually quite worse IMO. So this part of your argument is DOA.

> at least those who have never been here or taken the time to interact with an american

Now we're squarely in the domain of the unreasonable. The proportion of americans that have had an experience similar to yours is vanishingly tiny compared to the amount of exposure an average european gets to american culture (and I'm not talking about hollywod here).

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#84

Post by philwelch »

jacquesm wrote: post #2

There will be a lot more decisions like this one. For the war in Ukraine and anything immediate they will buy American stuff if there is no EU alternative (and for many things there just isn't right now, there are too many dependencies). But the tide has changed, for 'in' it is now to 'out'. It is abundantly clear the USA is no longer a dependable ally, and that it will use all kinds of strings attached to hobble wha…

> It is abundantly clear the USA is no longer a dependable ally, and that it will use all kinds of strings attached to hobble what they sell to be able to exert political pressure.

This isn’t a US-only problem, and if anything the US has been more reliable on this account than some major European countries. For instance, in the first several months of the war Germany actually prohibited other countries from exporting their own surplus Leopard tanks to Ukraine.

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#85

Post by philwelch »

Yoric wrote: post #75
eduction wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is abundantly clear the USA is no longer a dependable ally An extreme and inaccurate statement. The US is still party to NATO Article 5, meaning the blood of our young people is pledged to be shed to defend, say, Estonia. That has not changed. What has changed is the US has become more realistic and up front about the limitations of its reduced military. It’s not healthy, for the US /or/ Europe, to indulge the i…

I don't think that the sky is falling. However, I think that many in the US are underestimating the current paradigm shift. Right now, in Europe, leaders and voters need to take decisions while keeping in mind the possibility that the US will invade Canada and Greenland while not reacting if Russia movies to Estonia. Will it happen? Who the f*k knows? Donald Trump has made declarations very much in this direction. Al…

> Also, Donald Trump has broken a sufficiently large number of treaties

Which?

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#86

Post by poszlem »

BartjeD wrote: post #82
poszlem wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I firmly believe people are deluding themselves if they think that without US patronage, Europe wouldn't devolve into its historical norm, a state of internal warfare. The popular narrative suggests a 'United States of Europe' is forming, but this seems like propaganda when you look at the reality, nations are already returning to the historical status quo, prioritizing their own agendas and pulling in separate direc…

Joint EU debt isn't new, it already exists. Investments etc.. I don't think your narrative is as informed as you make it out to be.

Saying that joint EU debt already exists doesn’t really address the argument. The issue is not whether the EU has ever issued shared debt before. It is about whether member states are actually willing to expand that model in a politically sensitive area where the financial burden is uneven.

Germany is not objecting out of confusion about past instruments. It is objecting because a broader program of joint debt would place more longterm financial exposure on Germany, and it does not want to carry that load. Other countries support the idea precisely because it would distribute that cost more widely. That conflict keeps resurfacing every time the topic comes up.

You could just as easily point to other examples that show the same thing. Spain isn’t eager to pour money into the defense of Eastern Europe because it doesn’t feel the Russian threat the same way. And plenty of countries in Central and Eastern Europe push back hard when it comes to sharing the burden on migration, because they see that as a Southern European problem.

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#87

Post by dmix »

Barrin92 wrote: post #78
poszlem wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of viewing the current world order as collapsing, it's more accurate to see this as a transitional period. The system established after WWII no longer serves the interests of its main creator, the US, making change inevitable. A significant reduction in the quality of life for many in the 'so-called West' appears to be the unfortunate price of the world returning to a more 'normal' historical pattern of inter…

>The system established after WWII no longer serves the interests of its main creator I don't think that's true. The policy of alliance building and containment of their largest peer and competitor still makes sense. It was how the US ultimately overcame the Soviet Union, and is even more vital given the size and talent in China. A US without an alliance system will not win that competition. What's much more concerni…

European countries becoming more capable of defending themselves by scaling up their own military instead of being dependent on a foreign power will only harden containment of bad actors. That applies to my country Canada.

What's much riskier to the world is the US having to take the brunt of defending Europe, the Arctic front, and dealing with a conflict in China (which is far far more serious military threat than Russia in 2025).

It's difficult medicine to swallow but that's the realpolitiks of it.

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#88

Post by jijijijij »

kogus wrote: post #14
usrnm wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The damage to our future world order I don't think "damage" is the right word, especially outside of the US. Changes aren't necessarily bad, and, as someone living in the EU, I actually like the current trend.

As an American, I am also gratified to see the EU take steps toward independence from US foreign policy. Independence doesn't mean enmity; it just means that the EU and US should both be adults in the room, reaching decisions on equal terms. If one takes a longer view of things, the period from WW2 to now is very much an anomaly reflecting relative European weakness in the aftermath of that war's physical and moral d…

As if the US influence was built on charity for poor Europe... It's been all Red Scare and geopolitical power play. The US influence was nothing but intrinsically motivated. The only reason Germany was allowed to be rebuilt was its function as east bloc barrier.

The current US government is throwing away a world power status of unimaginable costs, which literally took almost a century to build. For better or worse, but let's not spin fairy tales about the why and when.

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#90

Post by englishrookie »

Yoric wrote: post #70
bix6 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That has more to do with their geography than their disgust no?

I think GP means that Europe didn't intervene when Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014 and, more generally, has done its best to limit rearmament until now. And we're going to pay for it by having a war against Russia that we might have avoided had we projected more strength. The precedent being France and UK that were so disgusted by war after WWI (and recall that France was the historical biggest warmonger among Western…

Right now, Russia's hands are conveniently tied by their incompetently fought war in Ukraine.

In the mean time, most major EU countries have increased their defense budgets. Some of the larger ones, most notably Germany, are considering to reintroduce conscription. Within about five years, the EU will be able to withstand Russia without any aid from the USA.

In fact, right now, Poland would be able to withstand the Russians on their own. Mind you, they would not be able to defeat the Russians, but they would give them a beating and repel any invasion of Poland.

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