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European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

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Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#41

Post by barbazoo »

usrnm wrote: post #8
jacquesm wrote: post #2

There will be a lot more decisions like this one. For the war in Ukraine and anything immediate they will buy American stuff if there is no EU alternative (and for many things there just isn't right now, there are too many dependencies). But the tide has changed, for 'in' it is now to 'out'. It is abundantly clear the USA is no longer a dependable ally, and that it will use all kinds of strings attached to hobble wha…

> The damage to our future world order I don't think "damage" is the right word, especially outside of the US. Changes aren't necessarily bad, and, as someone living in the EU, I actually like the current trend.

Same here. I’m not scared of China either and am excited for them to take more responsibility on the international stage. Hopefully US warmongering will come to an end too.

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#43

Post by barbazoo »

hshdhdhj4444 wrote: post #9
macintux wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree with your theme, but I think in this case it has less to do with the grenades Trump is randomly exploding and more to do with the E-7 simply being the wrong solution.

In the past it was useful for nations to opt for an American solution even if it wasn’t the most optimal precisely because of America being a dependable and trustworthy ally.

That sounds like such a made up thing. Any source to back that up?

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#44

Post by eduction »

jacquesm wrote: post #2

There will be a lot more decisions like this one. For the war in Ukraine and anything immediate they will buy American stuff if there is no EU alternative (and for many things there just isn't right now, there are too many dependencies). But the tide has changed, for 'in' it is now to 'out'. It is abundantly clear the USA is no longer a dependable ally, and that it will use all kinds of strings attached to hobble wha…

> It is abundantly clear the USA is no longer a dependable ally

An extreme and inaccurate statement. The US is still party to NATO Article 5, meaning the blood of our young people is pledged to be shed to defend, say, Estonia. That has not changed.

What has changed is the US has become more realistic and up front about the limitations of its reduced military. It’s not healthy, for the US /or/ Europe, to indulge the imperial fantasy that US forces in Europe (token deployments in Germany and Poland) are sufficient to defend against Russian attack.

Trump is not the first US president to push Europe to do more of precisely what it is doing here (spend its own money on defense). Being clear about limits is what a reliable ally does.

Europe ordering an Airbus AWACS instead of Boeing now that the US stopped subsidizing them is not surprising nor does it mean the sky is falling.

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#45

Post by VWWHFSfQ »

itopaloglu83 wrote: post #29
petcat wrote: post #10

> The decision follows the withdrawal of the U.S. from the joint AWACS replacement program in July 2024, which left the initiative without its strategic and financial foundation. Is this implying that USA was paying for it previously? It sounds like they're blaming "noise polution", but also that they're not getting the planes for free anymore?

Foreign Military Sales (FMS) programs allows the participating countries to share most of the setup cost, except some high end technology that is country specific, it’s mainly divided by per airframe basis. When you have the US Air Force in a program and they purchase a bazillion aircraft, things get relatively affordable. Well, the US left and nobody want to spend billions of dollars into the development of this air…

It kind of sounds like the USAF did the EU countries a favor then. If they're not interested in the technology anymore then it prevented all those countries from investing billions in a fleet of lemons.

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#46

Post by Teever »

saubeidl wrote: post #7
SilverElfin wrote: post #5

Geopolitically this rift between the US and EU is great for adversaries like Russia and China.

The US doesn't really see Russia as an adversary under Trump. Which begs the question, why should the EU see China as an adversary? That's mostly an American thing, the Pacific doesn't really concern us. Maybe alliances will reshuffle in the future?

Because democracies and authoritarian regimes are like oil and water.

Authoritarian regimes will inevitably attempt to expand because authoritarian leaders view the existence of people they don't rule as a threat towards their rule and they inevitably desire to grow their control and power over more and more people.

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#47

Post by [deleted] »

F3nd0 wrote: post #28
saubeidl wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US doesn't really see Russia as an adversary under Trump. Which begs the question, why should the EU see China as an adversary? That's mostly an American thing, the Pacific doesn't really concern us. Maybe alliances will reshuffle in the future?

Why should the EU not see an expansive authoritarian superpower as an adversary, or, at the very least, a real threat to its continued existence and sovereignty?

[deleted]

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#48

Post by poszlem »

jacquesm wrote: post #2

There will be a lot more decisions like this one. For the war in Ukraine and anything immediate they will buy American stuff if there is no EU alternative (and for many things there just isn't right now, there are too many dependencies). But the tide has changed, for 'in' it is now to 'out'. It is abundantly clear the USA is no longer a dependable ally, and that it will use all kinds of strings attached to hobble wha…

Instead of viewing the current world order as collapsing, it's more accurate to see this as a transitional period. The system established after WWII no longer serves the interests of its main creator, the US, making change inevitable.

A significant reduction in the quality of life for many in the 'so-called West' appears to be the unfortunate price of the world returning to a more 'normal' historical pattern of international relations.

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#49

Post by barbazoo »

SilverElfin wrote: post #5

Geopolitically this rift between the US and EU is great for adversaries like Russia and China.

I’m starting to question thinking of China as our adversary, what makes us think that way? Russia, sure they’re actively fighting against our allies. China?

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#50

Post by barbazoo »

Teever wrote: post #46
saubeidl wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US doesn't really see Russia as an adversary under Trump. Which begs the question, why should the EU see China as an adversary? That's mostly an American thing, the Pacific doesn't really concern us. Maybe alliances will reshuffle in the future?

Because democracies and authoritarian regimes are like oil and water. Authoritarian regimes will inevitably attempt to expand because authoritarian leaders view the existence of people they don't rule as a threat towards their rule and they inevitably desire to grow their control and power over more and more people.

> Authoritarian regimes will inevitably attempt to expand

Which is ironic that most of the annexation talk came from the US in the recent times, not from China. Canada, Greenland, Panama Canal, Mexico what else has he threatened to annex?

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