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European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

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Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#71

Post by walletdrainer »

lukan wrote: post #53
saubeidl wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One could also phrase it more cynically as protection money. Now that no more protection is offered, there's no point in spending the money.

Well this was quite openly communicated, why germany bought the F35 for example. To still get (nuclear) protection. (with the homebuild Tornados phasing out and the Eurofighter not getting a licence so easy, only the F35 is capable of delivering nukes with german pilots). But I think it was a pretty bad appeasement deal.

The F35 is also just a much better plane.

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#72

Post by myrmidon »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #40
F3nd0 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should the EU not see an expansive authoritarian superpower as an adversary, or, at the very least, a real threat to its continued existence and sovereignty?

China needs Europe to support its export economy because there will never be enough domestic demand to prevent a deflationary spiral. Europe is a rational actor China can expect to act rationally in trade, and Europe can benefit from that. The US has nothing to offer Europe except LNG that Europe cannot produce itself, or obtain from China at better price or quality. Canada has ~200 years of LNG reserves and can ship…

China is not exporting LNG at all, did you mean Canada?

The US is still a very large and attractive market for European exporters, and it would at the very least substantially least hurt Europeans if they had to fully substitute the US with China as a trade partner.

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#73

Post by daneel_w »

nxor wrote: post #30
jacquesm wrote: post #2

There will be a lot more decisions like this one. For the war in Ukraine and anything immediate they will buy American stuff if there is no EU alternative (and for many things there just isn't right now, there are too many dependencies). But the tide has changed, for 'in' it is now to 'out'. It is abundantly clear the USA is no longer a dependable ally, and that it will use all kinds of strings attached to hobble wha…

[flagged]

How can you deem Europe as not dependable based on what mostly amounts to studying two European languages? It's a continent of roughly 50 distinct nations, with almost as many languages and cultural distinctions, not to mention the huge political differences, even when in the same general ballpark, vastly overarching US political diversity (e.g. Danish Socialdemokratiet are something entirely else than the Swedish social democrats, who in turn are nothing like the German SPD).

Incidentally I'm reminded by how common this ignorant view of Europe and Europeans is with Americans, in how they either insist on or unfortunately misunderstand Europe as a single nation with near-homogeneity.

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#74

Post by imafish »

barbazoo wrote: post #50
Teever wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because democracies and authoritarian regimes are like oil and water. Authoritarian regimes will inevitably attempt to expand because authoritarian leaders view the existence of people they don't rule as a threat towards their rule and they inevitably desire to grow their control and power over more and more people.

> Authoritarian regimes will inevitably attempt to expand Which is ironic that most of the annexation talk came from the US in the recent times, not from China. Canada, Greenland, Panama Canal, Mexico what else has he threatened to annex?

So what does that tell us about the current US administration?… :)

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#75

Post by Yoric »

eduction wrote: post #44
jacquesm wrote: post #2

There will be a lot more decisions like this one. For the war in Ukraine and anything immediate they will buy American stuff if there is no EU alternative (and for many things there just isn't right now, there are too many dependencies). But the tide has changed, for 'in' it is now to 'out'. It is abundantly clear the USA is no longer a dependable ally, and that it will use all kinds of strings attached to hobble wha…

> It is abundantly clear the USA is no longer a dependable ally An extreme and inaccurate statement. The US is still party to NATO Article 5, meaning the blood of our young people is pledged to be shed to defend, say, Estonia. That has not changed. What has changed is the US has become more realistic and up front about the limitations of its reduced military. It’s not healthy, for the US /or/ Europe, to indulge the i…

I don't think that the sky is falling.

However, I think that many in the US are underestimating the current paradigm shift. Right now, in Europe, leaders and voters need to take decisions while keeping in mind the possibility that the US will invade Canada and Greenland while not reacting if Russia movies to Estonia.

Will it happen? Who the f*k knows? Donald Trump has made declarations very much in this direction. Also, Donald Trump has broken a sufficiently large number of treaties since becoming president that _anything_ should be considered possible.

That being said, as you mention, it's not clear that any of this is in any way related to Europe not buying the E-7.

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#76

Post by dblangford »

kogus wrote: post #14
usrnm wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The damage to our future world order I don't think "damage" is the right word, especially outside of the US. Changes aren't necessarily bad, and, as someone living in the EU, I actually like the current trend.

As an American, I am also gratified to see the EU take steps toward independence from US foreign policy. Independence doesn't mean enmity; it just means that the EU and US should both be adults in the room, reaching decisions on equal terms. If one takes a longer view of things, the period from WW2 to now is very much an anomaly reflecting relative European weakness in the aftermath of that war's physical and moral d…

US has historically taken the lead in policy regarding Russia to avoid nuclear proliferation in Europe. If the US umbrella is perceived as being unreliable then I think that is what will see.

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#77

Post by barbazoo »

SilverElfin wrote: post #57
barbazoo wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m starting to question thinking of China as our adversary, what makes us think that way? Russia, sure they’re actively fighting against our allies. China?

In my opinion it’s because of several things. They took over Xinjiang and Tibet, and committed large scale atrocities in both. They threaten Taiwan. They abandoned the treaties around Hong Kong. They continue to harass India - a sort of ally of NATO countries - over borders they share. Let’s also not forget crimes against Chinese people during the cultural revolution and since then. They’ve also engaged in widespread…

A lot of that context I didn’t have, thank you, I should catch up more in that regard.

> But mostly because the CCP just can’t be trusted with their power, because they’re neither democratic nor support liberal values like free speech.

How do we square this with the US being democratically elected (let’s ignore gerrymandering and absence of one person one vote) but the actions like the upcoming war with Venezuela, bombing Iran. The people didn’t vote for that either.

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#78

Post by Barrin92 »

poszlem wrote: post #48
jacquesm wrote: post #2

There will be a lot more decisions like this one. For the war in Ukraine and anything immediate they will buy American stuff if there is no EU alternative (and for many things there just isn't right now, there are too many dependencies). But the tide has changed, for 'in' it is now to 'out'. It is abundantly clear the USA is no longer a dependable ally, and that it will use all kinds of strings attached to hobble wha…

Instead of viewing the current world order as collapsing, it's more accurate to see this as a transitional period. The system established after WWII no longer serves the interests of its main creator, the US, making change inevitable. A significant reduction in the quality of life for many in the 'so-called West' appears to be the unfortunate price of the world returning to a more 'normal' historical pattern of inter…

>The system established after WWII no longer serves the interests of its main creator

I don't think that's true. The policy of alliance building and containment of their largest peer and competitor still makes sense. It was how the US ultimately overcame the Soviet Union, and is even more vital given the size and talent in China. A US without an alliance system will not win that competition.

What's much more concerning is that the rational interests of the US as a nation aren't reflected in its policy making any more. The 20th century had its share of domestic issues but the inmates weren't running the asylum as far as foreign politics was concerned which was coherent.

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#79

Post by barbazoo »

Yokolos wrote: post #66
barbazoo wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here. I’m not scared of China either and am excited for them to take more responsibility on the international stage. Hopefully US warmongering will come to an end too.

Yes, I'm sure all the countries around China are really excited and looking forward to this. Oh, wait ... It's the same shit with the Baltic states and other former Soviet satellite states. They're terrified of Russia, but people in Germany or further West think it's all overblown propaganda and there's nothing to fear from Russia. You being ignorant doesn't mean there aren't real issues and real, justified fears.

We’ll see if it actually gets much better the a what we have now with the US “in charge”. Overall it might turn out better.

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#80

Post by jleyank »

walletdrainer wrote: post #71
lukan wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well this was quite openly communicated, why germany bought the F35 for example. To still get (nuclear) protection. (with the homebuild Tornados phasing out and the Eurofighter not getting a licence so easy, only the F35 is capable of delivering nukes with german pilots). But I think it was a pretty bad appeasement deal.

The F35 is also just a much better plane.

The F35 is a fighter-bomber/light-bomber. Others are air superiority platforms. Different tools for different situations.
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