Time to start de-Appling • Hacker News Board

Re: Time to start de-Appling

#91

Post by cmsj » Mon, Nov 10, 2025, 5:50 PM UTC

sedatk wrote: post #74

caconym_ wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So, a UK-only advice So what? > it strangely assumes that any other service in UK wouldn’t be bound by the same laws. From the linked article: > I’m not going to tell you where to move your stuff other than to say that if you’re moving it from one big tech company to another, you’re just being daft. Likewise, if you’re moving your stuff to a non-e2ee service, don’t bother. If you need an e2ee service try Proton. Th…

> So what? The title felt like there was a greater issue with Apple specifically. There wasn't. There was a greater issue with the new UK laws and cloud storage systems. I think people deserved a clarification before getting wound up about it before reading the article.

FYI, this is not about a law, this is about a Technical Capability Notice. This is a thing the UK government is able to issue to a specific company or companies, that require them to implement technical measures to enable data collection. This applies only to the company/ies that the notice is issued to.

That could be one of them, some of them or all of them, but it's not really a law that automatically applies to all of them.

Re: Time to start de-Appling

#92

Post by syncsynchalt » Mon, Nov 10, 2025, 5:51 PM UTC

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #51

liotier wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean verbing a noun ?

Verbing weirds language.

The trees are really sneezing today.

Re: Time to start de-Appling

#93

Post by cmsj » Mon, Nov 10, 2025, 5:51 PM UTC

DeathArrow wrote: post #89

Maybe people in UK should de-stupidify their politicians.

It's doubtful that we can, the "good guys" are in power right now.

Re: Time to start de-Appling

#94

Post by api » Mon, Nov 10, 2025, 5:53 PM UTC

IMHO Apple is actually being honest here. They cannot legally operate in the UK without providing a back door, so they are dropping the claim of ADP in the UK. This is letting the user know what's up, and might also help inspire a backlash against these laws. Apple needs to make it clear that they are being forced by UK law to degrade service.

Corporations can't really resist governments unless they're not operating in a given government's jurisdiction and therefore have nothing to lose. They can take things to court, but in lieu of a verdict or an injunction they have to comply with the law or they can be fined, have assets frozen, be de-banked or banned from processing payments, etc.

I'm sure there's services out there that will secretly comply and still claim to be secure.

There's also a lot of companies that will simply abandon security features like ADP or never develop them. Apple is going to the trouble of disabling it only for UK people not everyone, instead of just deprecating it. The latter would be less expensive and expose them to less legal risk.

If you really want security in the UK now you have to roll your own and do the encryption yourself. Honestly that's always the best security, since you can never be 100% sure a closed cloud or software vendor isn't messing with you.

Re: Time to start de-Appling

#95

Post by amelius » Mon, Nov 10, 2025, 5:53 PM UTC

codexb wrote: post #28

Sounds more like people need to de-UK. It's going to be a problem with any company or technology.

It's an Apple problem, because with libre tools you can run your own software to circumvent this law.

Re: Time to start de-Appling

#96

Post by api » Mon, Nov 10, 2025, 5:55 PM UTC

Is it now effectively illegal in the UK for a company to provide end-to-end encrypted services to users?

Re: Time to start de-Appling

#97

Post by anonymousiam » Mon, Nov 10, 2025, 5:56 PM UTC

cmsj wrote: post #85

advisedwang wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

The actual straightforward fix isn't available to us - namely, we aren't due a general election until 2029 and right now the "good guys" are in power, so it's not at all clear that anyone would even offer to reverse this TCN if they were elected instead, in 4 years time.

At least the US hasn't postponed the general elections to keep the unpopular party in power.

https://www.local.gov.uk/our-support/devolution-and-lgr-hub/...

Re: Time to start de-Appling

#98

Post by prophesi » Mon, Nov 10, 2025, 5:56 PM UTC

disambiguation wrote: post #83

thw_9a83c wrote: post #29

From the article: > Otherwise, please make sure you de-Apple, de-Google, and de-American Stack yourself when you have time, clarity, and focus to do it. Start today. I don't understand the core of this advice. So if you're in the UK and do all the above, can you suddenly get similar E2EE cloud storage from a different provider without a UK government-mandated backdoor?

# Encrypt a file openssl enc -aes-256-cbc -salt -in secret.txt -out secret.enc # Decrypt openssl enc -d -aes-256-cbc -in secret.enc -out secret.txt Wow that was hard.

I'm reminded of the infamous HN Dropbox comment.

Re: Time to start de-Appling

#99

Post by nine_k » Mon, Nov 10, 2025, 6:00 PM UTC

benoau wrote: post #31

thw_9a83c wrote: post #29

From the article: > Otherwise, please make sure you de-Apple, de-Google, and de-American Stack yourself when you have time, clarity, and focus to do it. Start today. I don't understand the core of this advice. So if you're in the UK and do all the above, can you suddenly get similar E2EE cloud storage from a different provider without a UK government-mandated backdoor?

Hopefully pretty soon Apple will have to provide the same functionality iCloud monopolizes so you can have an equivalent service. But right now you can do an encrypted transmission to a privately-owned NAS like Synology and then E2E cloud storage provider of your choice, with the caveat that things like background syncing are strategically monopolized and no app may backup your full phone. https://www.catribunal.org.…

It's a bit like the famous HN post where somebody said that Dropbox is not needed if you have rsync and friends.

Technically this can even be correct. You can build and operate a good, secure solution for yourself if you have time and skill to build. Could make sense for a company handling sensitive data. Would hardly make sense for most individuals who are not professional SREs / SWEs. (To check how it feels, an engineer can try to sew themself a pair of pants to wear daily, or do something similarly mundane in what they are not skilled.)

A solution that can reliably work for non-experts is very important.

Re: Time to start de-Appling

#100

Post by ajsnigrutin » Mon, Nov 10, 2025, 6:01 PM UTC

omnicognate wrote: post #48

sedatk wrote: post #42

> You need to start that because, as we recently learned, at some point in the very near future Apple is withdrawing its Advanced Data Protection (ADP) feature from the UK altogether as a result of the Home Office TCN through the Investigatory Powers Act. So, a UK-only advice, and it strangely assumes that any other service in UK wouldn’t be bound by the same laws.

I can encrypt anything and store it in anything that provides storage. Why are people acting like "end to end encryption" is a feature you need a cloud service to provide to you. Rather the opposite - it's really something you can only do yourself.

And you must then give the password to your data.

https://thblegal.com/news/can-i-be-prosecuted-for-failing-to...

https://www.ilfattoquotidiano.it/in-edicola/articoli/2025/01...

etc.