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Largest cargo sailboat completes first Atlantic crossing

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Re: Largest cargo sailboat completes first Atlantic crossing

#31

Post by nradov »

_yb2s wrote: post #20
nradov wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've got to be kidding. Using a fully sail powered cargo vessel is a PR stunt, not the way of the future. Regular motorized cargo vessels will probably use some form of sails to slightly reduce fuel burn on downwind legs but it's physically impossible to move huge volumes of cargo purely by sail power in an economical way. There just isn't enough energy in the wind.

There’s more than enough energy in the wind, and modern sailing technology has come a long ways. Some modern recreational sailboats can cross an ocean as fast as a cargo ship on just wind power, and speed isn’t even much of a factor for a lot of shipping. With the right tech I think fuel free shipping can disrupt fossil fuel shipping just by being cheaper. Back when engines first replaced sailing fuel was nearly free…

Bullshit. We're not talking about recreational yachts here. There is not enough energy in wind alone to move huge merchant vessels at economically viable speeds across oceans.

Re: Largest cargo sailboat completes first Atlantic crossing

#32

Post by nradov »

mlhpdx wrote: post #24
nradov wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've got to be kidding. Using a fully sail powered cargo vessel is a PR stunt, not the way of the future. Regular motorized cargo vessels will probably use some form of sails to slightly reduce fuel burn on downwind legs but it's physically impossible to move huge volumes of cargo purely by sail power in an economical way. There just isn't enough energy in the wind.

Modern sailing technology is amazing, and you may want to check it out. Speeds are, literally, 10 times faster (or more) today than the recent past. It’s absolutely astonishing. The even better news is that the technology is becoming available to the general population and also commercially viable for projects like this.

I am familiar with modern sailing technology. Very little of it is applicable to huge merchant vessels. This project is a cute little stunt but it's never going to be economical for moving bulk cargo. Sails will be a minor supplement at best. Seriously, do the math.

Re: Largest cargo sailboat completes first Atlantic crossing

#33

Post by wffurr »

moron4hire wrote: post #21

This is just an unresearched idea so no for of feasibility, but what about helical windmills to generate electricity to augment power to a motor, ala hybrid gasoline/electric cars?

More efficient is something that directly provides thrust like a flettner rotor.

Re: Largest cargo sailboat completes first Atlantic crossing

#34

Post by nradov »

jacquesm wrote: post #15
nradov wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've got to be kidding. Using a fully sail powered cargo vessel is a PR stunt, not the way of the future. Regular motorized cargo vessels will probably use some form of sails to slightly reduce fuel burn on downwind legs but it's physically impossible to move huge volumes of cargo purely by sail power in an economical way. There just isn't enough energy in the wind.

That's both wrong and right at the same time. There is plenty of energy in the wind, but when it isn't blowing in a favorable direction for your journey it will cause you to have to considerably lengthen your trip or end up in places where you don't want to go. It also isn't as constant and/or reliable as a motor. But until a few hundred years ago wind was all we had, and there is no reason why you could not make a c…

Nonsense. Even if the wind is blowing the right direction it doesn't have enough energy to move a huge merchant vessel at economically viable speeds. Do you have any clue about the mass and drag involved with something like a 20000 TEU container ship? There is no magic hull shape which can ever make sail propulsion alone make sense. This is basic physics.

Re: Largest cargo sailboat completes first Atlantic crossing

#35

Post by bloudermilk »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #29
bloudermilk wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you pricing in the externalities of GHGs?

No. If it isn’t cheaper it isn’t on the board for the next decade or two outside niche routes. The hard part is in making it economically viable. We already know sailboats work.

That’s a decision we, as a civilization, need to make. I personally hope we manage to enact transnational policies that effectively price environmental and social externalities in my lifetime. Or else witness “free market” capitalism continue to degrade our planet and the lives of millions of less privileged people.

Re: Largest cargo sailboat completes first Atlantic crossing

#36

Post by bloudermilk »

nradov wrote: post #32
mlhpdx wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Modern sailing technology is amazing, and you may want to check it out. Speeds are, literally, 10 times faster (or more) today than the recent past. It’s absolutely astonishing. The even better news is that the technology is becoming available to the general population and also commercially viable for projects like this.

I am familiar with modern sailing technology. Very little of it is applicable to huge merchant vessels. This project is a cute little stunt but it's never going to be economical for moving bulk cargo. Sails will be a minor supplement at best. Seriously, do the math.

Sincere question: have you done the math? If so, this conversation would be a lot more interesting if you shared it.

Re: Largest cargo sailboat completes first Atlantic crossing

#37

Post by komali2 »

defrost wrote: post #8
Aurornis wrote: post #5

I love that they're trying this. It appears the more practical goal might be retrofitting existing vessels with large sails to augment the motors, but making a point with a fully wind-powered vessel is a good show. Well, it would have been fully wind powered if not for the damaged sail. Good on them for sticking with the journey, though. I hope they keep running the vessel and get a few more fully wind powered journe…

I have a dim recollection of exactly this as a VC proposal likely put to YC in the past 24 months or so. I think the notion was to fit masts to existing container ship and stacks, and I gsve it scant attention as my intuition (I once studied actual civil/mech engineering prior to jumping ship for applied math) suggested masts are better as integral parts of ships rather than bolt on after thoughts. EDIT: Wingsails to…

Wasn't the main issue with this that fuel is paid for by cargo ship customers (the container owners), not the shipping company? So the shipping company doesn't want to spend a ton of capital to get a 10% discount to all their customers, and there was no way for thousands of random customers to exert pressure on the shipping company to do so. Basically the economics didn't make sense.

Re: Largest cargo sailboat completes first Atlantic crossing

#38

Post by fgfarben »

nradov wrote: post #31
_yb2s wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s more than enough energy in the wind, and modern sailing technology has come a long ways. Some modern recreational sailboats can cross an ocean as fast as a cargo ship on just wind power, and speed isn’t even much of a factor for a lot of shipping. With the right tech I think fuel free shipping can disrupt fossil fuel shipping just by being cheaper. Back when engines first replaced sailing fuel was nearly free…

Bullshit. We're not talking about recreational yachts here. There is not enough energy in wind alone to move huge merchant vessels at economically viable speeds across oceans.

...how do you think trans-oceanic trade was done before steam or diesel powered ships?

Plenty of customers don't care about latency, just cost. No fuel = no fuel cost.

Re: Largest cargo sailboat completes first Atlantic crossing

#39

Post by TheMagicHorsey »

This seems to be a tiny vessel ... just 5000 tons of cargo. Most container ships carry more like 200,000 tons of cargo. Can sails scale to carry that much cargo? If not, I fear the economics will not work out for sails alone. Perhaps sails plus something else makes more sense?

Re: Largest cargo sailboat completes first Atlantic crossing

#40

Post by gerdesj »

defrost wrote: post #8
Aurornis wrote: post #5

I love that they're trying this. It appears the more practical goal might be retrofitting existing vessels with large sails to augment the motors, but making a point with a fully wind-powered vessel is a good show. Well, it would have been fully wind powered if not for the damaged sail. Good on them for sticking with the journey, though. I hope they keep running the vessel and get a few more fully wind powered journe…

I have a dim recollection of exactly this as a VC proposal likely put to YC in the past 24 months or so. I think the notion was to fit masts to existing container ship and stacks, and I gsve it scant attention as my intuition (I once studied actual civil/mech engineering prior to jumping ship for applied math) suggested masts are better as integral parts of ships rather than bolt on after thoughts. EDIT: Wingsails to…

"suggested masts are better as integral parts of ships rather than bolt on after thoughts."

It seems quite mad that we even need to debate this. Wind is free power and we have at least 2000 years of engineering to draw on how to use it.

Any propulsion unit needs to be effectively attached to a ship. Screws are attached longitudinally, low down and push. Sails are a bit more tricksy. A triangular sail mounted along the long axis will generally work best because it can handle more wind angles but a square sail mounted across the long axis will provide more power on a "reach" to a "run" (the wind is mostly from behind, so pushing).

The cutting edge of sailing ships that carried stuff are the tea clippers. Think "Cutty Sark" which is now a visitor attraction in London, Greenwich. Note the stay sails - the triangular sails at the front. Then note the three masts. Each mast has several main sails that are huge rectangles for "reaches" and additional extensions. There are even more triangular infill sails above the main sails.

It's quite hard to explain how wind and sails work but you need to understand that a sailing ship can sail "into the wind". Those triangles are better at it than those rectangles but those rectangles can get more power by being bigger. Even better, you can use the front triangular sails (stay sails) to moderate the wind to feed the other sails with less turbulent wind.

Wind is free power and it is so well understood. How on earth is this news?

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