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Europeans recognize Zohran Mamdani's policies as 'normal'

theguardian.com

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Re: Europeans recognize Zohran Mamdani's policies as 'normal'

#101

Post by abe94 »

mmooss wrote: post #76
abe94 wrote: post #36

Maybe the subsidized transit is normal in europe, and universal childcare in some parts of europe (definetly not all of western europe), but this article is stretching when claiming state run grocery stores are normal. Its also conveniently leaving out the policy ideas on reducing policing, and introducing mental health crisis workers which have been tried in the US (SF) and worked disastrously.

> introducing mental health crisis workers which have been tried in the US (SF) and worked disastrously. I've read it has worked very well, though not necessarily in SF in particular. Do you happen to remember where you read that? It's hard to imagine why having mental health professionals address mental health problems would be a bad idea.

Here's an account from the NYC government itself on how it hasn't worked well - https://comptroller.nyc.gov/reports/audit-of-the-behavioral-...

Re: Europeans recognize Zohran Mamdani's policies as 'normal'

#102

Post by dekken_ »

disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #95
dekken_ wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

now you're just lying, blatantly. My point was about the degree of taxation.

Do you not live in a parliamentary democracy with regular elections?

I live in France, which I'm not sure if you paying attention to it (no judgement, why would you), but as a country, they're somewhat financially screwed, so whether or not there are elections, or even if the people have representation, something needs to be done, and it will likely involve higher taxation and cost of living generally.

Re: Europeans recognize Zohran Mamdani's policies as 'normal'

#103

Post by rufus_foreman »

tkel wrote: post #69
abe94 wrote: post #36

Maybe the subsidized transit is normal in europe, and universal childcare in some parts of europe (definetly not all of western europe), but this article is stretching when claiming state run grocery stores are normal. Its also conveniently leaving out the policy ideas on reducing policing, and introducing mental health crisis workers which have been tried in the US (SF) and worked disastrously.

17 states have government owned stores, it's common across the US. They sell liquor and in some states they also sell groceries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholic_beverage_control_sta... On policing, Urban Alchemy is the company that was contracted in SF. Having worked directly with Urban Alchemy for years in LA, their staff are severly underqualified and 95% of the time will do nothing once arriving on site. T…

Government owned liquor stores were put in place because the free market was too good at supplying people with liquor, and governments wanted to put restrictions and guardrails around people's access to it.

Is that the case with groceries?

Re: Europeans recognize Zohran Mamdani's policies as 'normal'

#104

Post by rufus_foreman »

ryandrake wrote: post #8
afavour wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you can nitpick the detail but the broader point is still true. Yes, you still pay for the bus, but it’s heavily subsidised. Yes, you still pay for childcare but government subsidies make it wildly more affordable than it is today for New Yorkers. The general pitch is “raise taxes to make life more affordable for all”. That’s an idea Europeans can identify with.

Based on some of the hysterical commenters yesterday, you'd think that Lenin himself is moving into the mayor's office. People's sense of scale and the Overton window are so wacky right now.

Seizing the means of production does somehow sound vaguely Leninish to me. Not to you? The Overton window, it moves!

Re: Europeans recognize Zohran Mamdani's policies as 'normal'

#105

Post by gruez »

tpm wrote: post #82
gruez wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"State run grocery stores" perhaps aren't, but consumers' co-operatives [...] are That's a pretty important difference you're eliding. "state run" is where most of the objection is. Coops get nowhere near the pushback (if any) that state run businesses (ie. "communism") get from Americans.

"state run" is also probably incorrect. AFAIK Mamdani will be the mayor of New York City, which is a city, not a state. Cities in Europe tend to run businesess outside of their core competency quite often. Is that not the case in the US?

>"state run" is also probably incorrect. AFAIK Mamdani will be the mayor of New York City, which is a city, not a state.

"state" in this case refers to "government", not US "states". You see this type of usage elsewhere, for instance "state" schools[1], which are often operated at the city/county level, not state level.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_school

Re: Europeans recognize Zohran Mamdani's policies as 'normal'

#106

Post by vdnkh »

screye wrote: post #58

No, Europeans will recognize NYC's policies as normal, Zohran or not. Afterall, It's one of America's only European-ish cities. NYC has subsidized world-class transit, rent-stabilization, high taxes and free-childcare. Pretty European. Zohran is classic of case of 'the dose makes the poison'. Instead of subsidized buses, he wants free buses. Instead of rent-stabilization, he wants rent freezes. He wants to increase a…

> But for some reason, democratic socialists refuse to engage with the book earnestly.

You're not as informed as you think you are, probably because you're not an NYC resident and have no actual stake in this election. We successfully passed 3 ballot proposals that reduce regulation and review time for building certain housing units. Mamdani voted for all 3 also. More deregulation is needed and expected under Mamdani - not to the tune of enriching developers, but for building actual affordable units.

Side rant: A lot of people on HN talk about building more supply. And we do - if you've lived in NYC for an appreciable amount of time, you'll know how different LIC, Greenpoint/Williamsburg, Downtown BK, and Gowanus (among others) look like after 10 years of intense development. Despite receiving tax breaks (421a), most units are not affordable. They're also incredibly cheaply built and generally unpleasant places to live, chock full of excessive amenities that drive up the rent. There's a balance here between freeing developers and allowing them to run buckwild with "affordable" 5k/mo studios. It's easy to quote Paul Krugman on HN about supply side housing and rent regulation but there's more to the story here than just "build more".

Re: Europeans recognize Zohran Mamdani's policies as 'normal'

#107

Post by tpm »

gruez wrote: post #105
tpm wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"state run" is also probably incorrect. AFAIK Mamdani will be the mayor of New York City, which is a city, not a state. Cities in Europe tend to run businesess outside of their core competency quite often. Is that not the case in the US?

>"state run" is also probably incorrect. AFAIK Mamdani will be the mayor of New York City, which is a city, not a state. "state" in this case refers to "government", not US "states". You see this type of usage elsewhere, for instance "state" schools[1], which are often operated at the city/county level, not state level. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_school

> You see this type of usage elsewhere, for instance "state" schools[1]

Schools operated at the city/county level are called public schools in the US, no? So in the same vein these stores should either be called public or city stores.

Note that the Guardian article instead talks about "city-run" and "municipal-run" grocery stores. And the reason I'm mentioning this is that "city-run" sounds harmless while "state run" is exactly what you mention: "Coops get nowhere near the pushback (if any) that state run businesses (ie. "communism") get from Americans."

Re: Europeans recognize Zohran Mamdani's policies as 'normal'

#108

Post by gruez »

tpm wrote: post #107
gruez wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"state run" is also probably incorrect. AFAIK Mamdani will be the mayor of New York City, which is a city, not a state. "state" in this case refers to "government", not US "states". You see this type of usage elsewhere, for instance "state" schools[1], which are often operated at the city/county level, not state level. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_school

> You see this type of usage elsewhere, for instance "state" schools[1] Schools operated at the city/county level are called public schools in the US, no? So in the same vein these stores should either be called public or city stores. Note that the Guardian article instead talks about "city-run" and "municipal-run" grocery stores. And the reason I'm mentioning this is that "city-run" sounds harmless while "state run"…

>Schools operated at the city/county level are called public schools in the US, no?

Right, I'm pointing out that "state" in the english language isn't limited to just US states. If you're not convinced by that, there's also "state" owned enterprises in countries that don't even have "states" (eg. China).

>Note that the Guardian article instead talks about "city-run" and "municipal-run" grocery stores. And the reason I'm mentioning this is that "city-run" sounds harmless while "state run" is exactly what you mention: "Coops get nowhere near the pushback (if any) that state run businesses (ie. "communism") get from Americans."

The only difference between municipally and states owned enterprises (both the US state kind and "government" kind) is in scale. Objections to state ownership mainly revolve around state coercion (you can't opt out of a municipal grocery store, especially if it's funded by tax dollars), and potential for self-dealing. Both these concerns exist for municipal grocery stores, but not coops.

Re: Europeans recognize Zohran Mamdani's policies as 'normal'

#109

Post by malyk »

abe94 wrote: post #99
tkel wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

17 states have government owned stores, it's common across the US. They sell liquor and in some states they also sell groceries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholic_beverage_control_sta... On policing, Urban Alchemy is the company that was contracted in SF. Having worked directly with Urban Alchemy for years in LA, their staff are severly underqualified and 95% of the time will do nothing once arriving on site. T…

A liquor store and a grocery store aren't the same thing, they were set up for different reasons, have different policy goals and are run differently. Also if the goal is helping with "food deserts" - which seems like a tenuous claim already for a city with a ton of bodegas there are better less costly solutions. When comparing actual state run grocery store pilots (in the US) they have been a disaster - see the kans…

Isn't that a 35% reduction in police response?
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