I only got that job because I’m a girl • Hacker News Board

Re: I only got that job because I’m a girl

#71

Post by Volpe » Fri, Sep 28, 2012, 3:53 AM UTC

btilly wrote: post #63

Volpe wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The assumption that past discrimination justifies reverse discrimination is a dangerous one I wasn't saying it was justified, I was saying it was a problem. One that doesn't exist if there was no discrimination. Racial Discrimination is racial discrimination, there is no such thing as 'well justified' racial discrimination. Saying that "Well I know that Blacks' go through school easier so their degree means less" i…

OK, you've made the argument that only horrid racists believe that black high school graduates are less likely than white high school graduates to have basic competency at reading, writing and arithmetic. But have you made the argument that people who believe that are WRONG ? This is not a question of opinion. This is a question of fact. For instance http://www.betterhighschools.org/docs/nhsc_highschoolliterac... quo…

Oh I see, because they are disadvantaged and thus achieve less, we should disadvantage them... that'll make the world a better place.

That's why those people who believe that are wrong.

Re: I only got that job because I’m a girl

#72

Post by forensic » Fri, Sep 28, 2012, 4:25 AM UTC

btilly wrote: post #66

gatordan wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's strange how convenient and accepted unchecked anecdotal evidence can be around here under certain circumstances . If this was a strictly tech article I would hope more people would be saying your sample size here is two or three, that's clearly not the best predictor of the future. But you're talking about race and gender from the majority white male centered perspective so your comment is at the top. According…

Are you familiar with the concept of playing Devil's advocate? Also did you read the final paragraph?

Devil's advocate isn't an excuse to spew racist and sexist bullshit that apologizes for discrimination.

Re: I only got that job because I’m a girl

#73

Post by mc32 » Fri, Sep 28, 2012, 4:55 AM UTC

btilly wrote: post #63

Volpe wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The assumption that past discrimination justifies reverse discrimination is a dangerous one I wasn't saying it was justified, I was saying it was a problem. One that doesn't exist if there was no discrimination. Racial Discrimination is racial discrimination, there is no such thing as 'well justified' racial discrimination. Saying that "Well I know that Blacks' go through school easier so their degree means less" i…

OK, you've made the argument that only horrid racists believe that black high school graduates are less likely than white high school graduates to have basic competency at reading, writing and arithmetic. But have you made the argument that people who believe that are WRONG ? This is not a question of opinion. This is a question of fact. For instance http://www.betterhighschools.org/docs/nhsc_highschoolliterac... quo…

>Now what do you propose that we should do about it?

Asians (Chinese and Japanese Americans were severely discriminated against in the US --to the point it was illegal for them to own property in some states (till '46). Yet, in a few decades, they were able to overcome the discrimination and even best whites as a whole.

Much of that appears to me culture based, not even ethnicity based. Now, not all Asians do well and have the same aptitude toward education and sacrifice. Compare East Asians with SouthEast Asians with Island Asians. Still, from my exposure, there is a large percentage whose parents inculcate learning and education and sacrifice (ex. Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother as modern example). On the other hand look at Appalachian whites. Education is made fun of and they are some of the poorest people in America.

Essentially, make education and learning something held dear and worthwhile. Many other white kinds I went to school with were apathetic towards education (these guys are now laying carpets and driving trucks and so on). It's totally different mindset comapred to say, ABCs. They might not "like" school, but they know it's a means to and end rather than an obstacle to having fun.

Re: I only got that job because I’m a girl

#74

Post by eevee » Fri, Sep 28, 2012, 4:59 AM UTC

btilly wrote: post #27

alid wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry man, I appreciate your point but the general tone of your argument comes across like you think women are more of a 'risky' hire?

It is not politically correct to say that women are riskier hires than men. But given biology and current culture, women of child-bearing age clearly are riskier hires. Women have non-trivial odds of getting pregnant, sometimes unexpectedly. In the event of pregnancy, moms usually require more time off than fathers, and are more likely to never return to their jobs. That said, I am sympathetic to the position that em…

Yes, I can see how giving an employee time off to perpetuate the species might be inconvenient. How dare she! I need her to work on my social networking website, not make more people.

People quit their jobs, frequently, for a wide variety of reasons. Women have a potential reason that men don't have. Cry me a river.

Re: I only got that job because I’m a girl

#75

Post by spindritf » Fri, Sep 28, 2012, 5:04 AM UTC

FireBeyond wrote: post #45

btilly wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not politically correct to say that women are riskier hires than men. But given biology and current culture, women of child-bearing age clearly are riskier hires. Women have non-trivial odds of getting pregnant, sometimes unexpectedly. In the event of pregnancy, moms usually require more time off than fathers, and are more likely to never return to their jobs. That said, I am sympathetic to the position that em…

Meh to 'risk'. I've seen employers tell my ex- that they were looking for someone to commit to multiple years, not just be fly-by-night. She agreed, and was laid off two months later due to 'change in business direction'. It's the flip side of 'at will' employment. Unless a company is willing to put it in contract, I would recommend often showing little hesitation in not being more open about your future plans than y…

> Meh to 'risk'.

I bet this one has a spot in top 10 most popular last thoughts.

Re: I only got that job because I’m a girl

#76

Post by btilly » Fri, Sep 28, 2012, 5:22 AM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #73

btilly wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, you've made the argument that only horrid racists believe that black high school graduates are less likely than white high school graduates to have basic competency at reading, writing and arithmetic. But have you made the argument that people who believe that are WRONG ? This is not a question of opinion. This is a question of fact. For instance http://www.betterhighschools.org/docs/nhsc_highschoolliterac... quo…

>Now what do you propose that we should do about it? Asians (Chinese and Japanese Americans were severely discriminated against in the US --to the point it was illegal for them to own property in some states (till '46). Yet, in a few decades, they were able to overcome the discrimination and even best whites as a whole. Much of that appears to me culture based, not even ethnicity based. Now, not all Asians do well an…

Jewish people are another example of a discriminated against minority which values education and has become successful. If you can get a group to actually acquire the skills that are needed, they succeed.

But the problem lies in getting them to do so. And if they do so, getting the rest of the country to realize that they have done so.

When I asked what should be done about it, I was being deliberately unfair. It is obvious to me that many well-meaning efforts to resolve the problems are backfiring. But I have no clue how to actually solve the problem.

For instance if you give kids credentials without requiring achievement, then people rationally will discount those credentials. But sufficient resources to allow kids to legitimately achieve to the same level are hard to come by. Particularly considering the fact that parents of affluent ethnic groups are generally willing to devote a lot of effort making sure that their children have all of the resources that they need.

However the one thing that I am sure does not work is to try to pretend that the problem does not exist, and to try to make it anathema for anyone to fail to step in line. And, unfortunately, that seems to be the most popular "solution" that we have.

Re: I only got that job because I’m a girl

#77

Post by glaak » Fri, Sep 28, 2012, 5:34 AM UTC

jules wrote: post #65

glaak wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Um. Read the studies. No, the odds aren't even. In technology, they're stacked against women. (And against black people in general.) (I would very much believe, however, that in bartending, it's stacked against men.)

Since you're familiar with the studies, please cite them. As it stands your comment is just "RTFM!!" without even saying which manual.

The studies cited on the original article which this comment thread it attached to. Read the graphs there. Equally qualified women were rated as less competent.

http://www.technologywoman.com/2012/09/27/i-only-got-that-jo...

Re: I only got that job because I’m a girl

#78

Post by mc32 » Fri, Sep 28, 2012, 5:49 AM UTC

btilly wrote: post #76

mc32 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Now what do you propose that we should do about it? Asians (Chinese and Japanese Americans were severely discriminated against in the US --to the point it was illegal for them to own property in some states (till '46). Yet, in a few decades, they were able to overcome the discrimination and even best whites as a whole. Much of that appears to me culture based, not even ethnicity based. Now, not all Asians do well an…

Jewish people are another example of a discriminated against minority which values education and has become successful. If you can get a group to actually acquire the skills that are needed, they succeed. But the problem lies in getting them to do so. And if they do so, getting the rest of the country to realize that they have done so. When I asked what should be done about it, I was being deliberately unfair. It is…

Throwing resources for the sake of it, I think would fall short. There has to be a plan and a change of attitude towards education, towards teaching, etc. by parents, pupils and society. Lots of students are dismissive of school, lots of parents expect school to do the child formation for them and forget that most of the responsibility lies with them.

Finland and Singapore are small and so their successes might now translate perfectly for a large, diverse nation. Yet, they might still have some lessons for us to learn.

One of the largest problems, in my view, might just be inertia. There are lots of people with large political capital tied up in the current system and are not willing to give it up despite this hurting chances of progress for the people they are trying to help.

Re: I only got that job because I’m a girl

#79

Post by glaak » Fri, Sep 28, 2012, 5:58 AM UTC

smokey_the_bear wrote: post #41

I also interned at Microsoft in college, and I'm sure the only reason I got the internship was because I'm a girl. MS hired only five interns from my school that year, and all were female, which is pretty remarkable given my school's sub 5% female representation. I also had an offer from IBM's Extreme Blue that summer, which I don't think had much to do with being female. I also think being female made it a little ea…

Also, think through what it would mean to actually get the offer (not the interview -- the offer itself) because you were female. Your recruiter isn't deciding who is getting an offer; the individual teams are. So how would this collaboration have happened such that only women from your college were given offers? Remember that Microsoft still has a very low percent of female engineers, so it's not a company wide policy.

You're telling me that a set of unrelated teams decided interdependently to specifically offer positions to women from your college? Why? Why your college? It just doesn't make sense.

My guess is that there's something much less sinister going on, such as: -- It's just a weird coincidence. (After all, they recruit from many schools.) -- Some professor referred mostly female students, perhaps even being under the mistaken impression that they were asking for good female candidates. -- The female students are your schools are actually more qualified than the male. (This is not particularly unlikely, if your school is really less than 5% female. To get numbers that low, there may be some pressure to drop out, leaving only the best women there.) -- Microsoft hires mostly PMs from your school, which are more likely than devs to be female. -- Microsoft extended offers to a number of men too, who happened to not take the offer. -- Many of these 5 students were actually given offers for a specific program dedicated to minorities. -- You're wrong about the percent of women in your CS program (very likely). -- You're wrong about the number of women / men hired.

These are just a few of the possibilities I can think of. What seems incredibly unlikely is that a bunch of unrelated teams all decided to hire only women from specifically your university. I just don't understand how that would work.

By the way, are you sure your school is <5% female? That is WAY under the national average.

Re: I only got that job because I’m a girl

#80

Post by glaak » Fri, Sep 28, 2012, 6:10 AM UTC

bencxr wrote: post #59

I'm not saying the poster got the job because she was a girl (or not), but the bottom line (imo) is that you have to play the hand you're dealt. Some people are born rich, into high society etc and some are not. I don't see people unhappy that others are saying they "got the job because their dad was powerful". Whether or not there was a real advantage doesn't matter. If there was a real advantage, well thank you, I'…

First of all, when people are trying to diminutize your accomplishments -- saying that you don't deserve them -- it does matter. It affects not only your morale, but also your ability to achieve things in the future.

Second, the point of the article is not the being a woman is an advantage but rather, that there's good evidence that it's a disadvantage. When you have a group that is already unrepresented in the sciences who face additional disadvantages, that IS a problem.

Yes, of course you play the hand you're dealt. What other choice do you have? That doesn't mean you shouldn't fight for equality for everyone.