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End of Japanese community

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Re: End of Japanese community

#141

Post by Groxx »

davidclark wrote: post #38
chao- wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am fascinated by the nuanced opinions people have about word choice. What phrase would you use to ask someone to discuss a matter, but which you feel would be more appropriate for this kind of situation?

My guess would be the anger comes from implication that is a possible solution at all. This type of “hop on a call” request is not usually actually designed to “truly understand what you're struggling with.” (words from the post) Instead it is usually a PR tactic. The goal of the call requester is to get your acquiescence. Most people are less likely to be confrontational and stand up for themselves when presented wi…

It's also often a way to avoid saying things in public, in writing, that normal people would be upset about.

If they truly think they're in the right, they can discuss it in public, like the poster already did.

Re: End of Japanese community

#142

Post by krick »

jogu wrote: post #113
krick wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Unlike GP) I don't actually have a problem with your assumptions. They seem likely to me. But I still have a problem with the whole sentiment of, uh, people on your side of the discussion. Let's just assume it is how you say it is. (The only assumption I am not willing to make is that people at Mozilla are already convinced it was a bad idea after all.) What in your opinion would be the right move now , after they r…

I'm not sure if just this individual is upset, or if he's speaking on behalf of the entire community he's the leader of. I think it's clear that Mozilla wants machine translation to take a bigger role in producing localized content, and this new process will be a large shift in the way things have been done. I think it's fair for Mozilla to do this, but I also think it's fair for the maintainer to be upset with this…

There is no such person as "Mozilla". There is Kiki, a "Support Community Manager", probably a relatively low-level worker (but it doesn't matter much if she is actually has some weight in the organization). So, you are Kiki. You just saw that message. What do you do now? Just ignore it? Do not respond anything and immediately call the CEO and try to convince him/her that he/she must order to disable that auto-translation bot, without even trying to gather more information? No onuses and stuff, what are your actions, exactly?

Because a lot of people in this thread are whin… ahem, expressing their discontent with Mozilla, as we all usually do, but I've yet to see anybody to propose anything realistic at all, let alone better than ask an offended community member for a call and at least to try to talk it through and establish what could be some actionable steps to remedy the situation.

Re: End of Japanese community

#143

Post by gpm »

o11c wrote: post #138
gpm wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's at all clear that some foss licenses (MIT for instance) are irrevocable. Not in the US, and certainly not in any possible relevant country... It's not clear that they are revocable either. As I understand the law it at least in part rests on the question of whether there was consideration in exchange for the license, which might even make it a case by case analysis. CC licenses (and some other foss…

Whether the license is revokable or not is irrelevant when the action isn't permitted by the license anyway. In particular, the primary purpose of AI as we know it is to strip off attribution, which is explicitly forbidden by basically every license in existence.

True, license is probably irrelevant here because they aren't even intending to comply with the terms of it.

To nitpick "explicitly forbidden" isn't quite right. Licenses basically only grant more permissions, they can't remove them. It's explicitly excluded from the rights granted by the license, but it's not explicitly forbidden because it is the law that might or might not forbid the activity, not the license.

Re: End of Japanese community

#144

Post by kentm »

jack1243star wrote: post #103
crazygringo wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are a huge number of assumptions you're making, absolutely none of which are in the post. Generally speaking, orgs aren't trying to replace high-quality human translations with lower-quality machine translations. They are often trying to put machine translations in where there are no translations, though. Getting the balance right requires fine-tuning. And fine-tuning requires a quick call to start to better un…

> Generally speaking, orgs aren't trying to replace high-quality human translations with lower-quality machine translations. Seems that this is exactly what Mozilla did? And Microsoft, and Reddit, etc.

Correct.

Companies are absolutely falling over themselves to replace high quality human translations with lower quality machine translation. I’m not sure how a hacker news poster could miss this trend.

Re: End of Japanese community

#145

Post by [deleted] »

chao- wrote: post #26
jahsome wrote: post #10

I'm not really able to understand the finer details but I think I picked up enough to get the broad strokes. Really though, all I needed to see was the phrase "jump on a quick call" to form an irrationally strong opinion. That phrase instantly warms my entire body with rage.

I am fascinated by the nuanced opinions people have about word choice. What phrase would you use to ask someone to discuss a matter, but which you feel would be more appropriate for this kind of situation?

[deleted]

Re: End of Japanese community

#147

Post by numpad0 »

Isn't it fascinating that despite `while true; do claude --yolo` over a weekend being all it takes to port some project across platforms, LLMs completely fall apart when it comes to speaking grammatical and natural Japanese?

Free tier Gemini CLI literally writes Android app for me by just endlessly wondering in English. AGI's here. And it struggles with Japanese. How!?

Re: End of Japanese community

#148

Post by makeitdouble »

Groxx wrote: post #133
Waterluvian wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure those who speak like that are equipped to understand how offensive their words and tone can be. It suggests a decision can be reversed with a quick call, which questions one’s choices or conviction. As if to suggest the choice was made without considerable thought and care. It’s such an unserious tone to a moment that’s very serious to the other.

I think it's because it's almost never accompanied by "we may have fucked up, please help us understand how to fix it now and in the future". It's almost always (like this time) "I'm sorry you feel that way, please spend more of your free time ", and sometimes (like this time) "[we're doing it anyway but maybe we'll make some changes]". It feels insulting because it is insulting. The decision has been made, they just…

At some point, "quick calls" are used for discussions that they don't want a trace of.

So, even in the best "sorry we screwed up" scenario, the quick call covers their butt and let them leeway to backtrack as needed. That's also part of why we viscerally react to opaque meetings IMHO.

Re: End of Japanese community

#149

Post by kentm »

Incipient wrote: post #28
benatkin wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They said sorry for how you feel about it which is insincere and unhelpful.

My partner has been picking me up on the specifics of wording. Is there a slightly different phrasing that would make this better, or is it the sentiment that's crap? "I'm sorry for how these changes impacted you"? Personally just the sentiment feels insincere to me haha.

Don’t use passive voice in an apology. “We’re sorry that we made the change without consulting your team or considering your circumstances.”

The change did not fall out of thin air. It was something they did. If they do not own it explicitly then it’s insincere full stop.

Re: End of Japanese community

#150

Post by BrenBarn »

chao- wrote: post #26
jahsome wrote: post #10

I'm not really able to understand the finer details but I think I picked up enough to get the broad strokes. Really though, all I needed to see was the phrase "jump on a quick call" to form an irrationally strong opinion. That phrase instantly warms my entire body with rage.

I am fascinated by the nuanced opinions people have about word choice. What phrase would you use to ask someone to discuss a matter, but which you feel would be more appropriate for this kind of situation?

The right thing to do is undo what you did and then ask to talk about it. There is nothing the person can say to make up for the destructive effects they took.
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