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I’m worried that they put co-pilot in Excel

simonwillison.net

121–130 of 346 posts

Re: I’m worried that they put co-pilot in Excel

#121
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We disavow AI because people like Brenda are perfect and the machine is error-prone. No, no. We disavow AI because our great leaders inexplicably trust it more than Brenda.

I don't understand why generative AI gets a pass at constantly being wrong, but an average worker would be fired if they performed the same way. If a manager needed to constantly correct you or double check your work, you'd be out. Why are we lowering the bar for generative AI?

There's a variety of reasons.

You don't have a human to manage. The relationship is completely one-sided, you can query a generative AI at 3 in the morning on new years eve. This entity has no emotions to manage and no own interests.

There's cost.

There's an implicit promise of improvement over time.

There's an the domain of expertise being inhumanly wide. You can ask about cookies right now, then about XII century France, then about biochemistry.

The fact that an average worker would be fired if they perform the same way is what the human actually competes with. They have responsibility, which is not something AI can offer. If it was the case that, say, Anthropic, actually signed contracts stating that they are liable for any mistakes, then humans would be absolutely toast.

Re: I’m worried that they put co-pilot in Excel

#122
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then you end up with a team of five people each tree times as expensive as Brenda, and what used to be an email now takes a sprint and has to go through ticket system.

That’s not what I had in mind. Then you end up with a report that goes out automatically every month to leadership pulled directly from the Salesforce data, along with a real time dashboard anyone in the org can look at, broken down by team, vertical, and sales volume. Why are people so attached to manual process?

Because when one exec ask: "Why is that?" the room goes silent.

Re: I’m worried that they put co-pilot in Excel

#123

I find the contrast between two narratives around technology use so fascinating: 1. We advocate automation because people like Brenda are error-prone and machines are perfect. 2. We disavow AI because people like Brenda are perfect and the machine is error-prone. These aren't contradictions because we only advocate for automation in limited contexts: when the task is understandable, the execution is reliable, the pro…

No contradiction here: When we say “machine”, we mean deterministic algorithms and predictable mechanisms. Generative AI is neither of those things (in theory it is deterministic but not for any practical applications). If we order by predictability: Quick Sort > Brenda > Gen AI

If you think programs are predictable, I have a bridge to sell you.

The only relevant metric here is how often each thing makes mistakes. Programs are the most reliable, though far from 100%, humans are much less than that, and LLMs are around the level of humans, depending on the humans and the LLM.

Re: I’m worried that they put co-pilot in Excel

#124
post #21
post #6

This quote is pulled from a TikTok, I recommend watching the whole thing here: https://www.tiktok.com/@belligerentbarbies/video/75683800086... (I pulled the quote by using yt-dlp to grab the MP4 and then running that through MacWhisper to generate a transcript.)

It's a little over two paragraphs. Seems like it would have been simpler just to... type it out?

Why spend two minutes typing (and realistically longer than that, if I want to capture the exact transcript I would need to keep hitting pause and play and correcting myself) when I can spend ten seconds pasting a URL into my terminal and then dragging and dropping the resulting file onto the MacWhisper window?

I actually transcribed the whole TikTok which was about 50% longer than what I quoted, then edited it down to the best illustrative quote.

Re: I’m worried that they put co-pilot in Excel

#125
post #6

This quote is pulled from a TikTok, I recommend watching the whole thing here: https://www.tiktok.com/@belligerentbarbies/video/75683800086... (I pulled the quote by using yt-dlp to grab the MP4 and then running that through MacWhisper to generate a transcript.)

I can see that MacWhisper uses parakeet v2 as the model (although it allows choosing another model). Is MacWhisper a $60 GUI for a Python script that just runs the model?

There's also a free version that just uses Whisper. I recommend giving it a go, it's a very well constructed GUI wrapper. I use it multiple times a week, and I've run Whisper on my machine in other less convenient ways in the past.

Re: I’m worried that they put co-pilot in Excel

#126

Hmmm the Brendas I know look a little different. “There are two Brendas - their job is to make spreadsheets in the Finance department. Well, not quite - they add the months and categories to empty spreadsheets, then they ask the other departments to fill in their sales numbers every month so it can be presented to management. “The two Brendas don’t seem to talk, otherwise they would realize that they’re both asking e…

Not every topic on HN needs a contrarian's hot take.

Re: I’m worried that they put co-pilot in Excel

#127

I find the contrast between two narratives around technology use so fascinating: 1. We advocate automation because people like Brenda are error-prone and machines are perfect. 2. We disavow AI because people like Brenda are perfect and the machine is error-prone. These aren't contradictions because we only advocate for automation in limited contexts: when the task is understandable, the execution is reliable, the pro…

The big problem with AI in back-office automation is that it will randomly decide to do something different than it had been doing. Meaning that it could be happily crunching numbers accurately in your development and launch experience, then utterly drop the ball after a month in production.

While humans have the same risk factors, human oriented back-office processes involve multiple rounds of automated/manual checks which are extremely laborious. Human errors in spreadsheets have particular flavors such as forgotten cell, misstyped number, or reading from the wrong file/column. Human's are pretty good at catching these errors as they produce either completely wrong results when the columns don't line up - or the typo'd number is completely out of distribution.

An AI may simply decide to hallucinate realistic column values rather than extracting its assigned input. Or hallucinate a fraction of column values. How do you QA this? You can't guarantee that two invocations of the AI won't hallucinate the same values, you can't guarantee that a different LLM won't hallucinate different values. To get a real human check, you'd need to re-do the task as a human. In theory you can have the LLM perform some symbolic manipulation to improve accuracy... but it can still hallucinate the reasoning traces etc.

If a human decided to make up accounting numbers one out of every 10000 accounting requests they would likely be charged with fraud. Good luck finding the AI hallucinations at the equivalent level before some disaster occurs. Likewise, how do you ensure the human excel operator doesn't get pressured into certifying the AIs numbers when the "don't get fired this week" button is sitting right their in their excel app? how do you avoid the race to the bottom where the "star" employee is the one certifying the AI results without thorough review?

I'm bullish on AI in backoffice, but ignoring the real difficulties in deployment doesn't help us get there.

Re: I’m worried that they put co-pilot in Excel

#128
post #63
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still find the Copilot transcripts orders of magnitude worse than something like Wispr Flow and they tend to allucinate constantly and do not adapt to a company's context (that Copilot has access too...). I am talking about acronyms of products / teams, names of people (even when they are in the call), etc.

Can anyone familiar with the technical details shed light on why this is so. Is it because of a globally trained model (as opposed to trained[tweaked on] on context specific data) or because of using different classes of models.

Neither copilot nor flow can natively handle audio to my understanding, so there is already a transcription model converting it to text that then GPT tries to summarise.

It could be they simply use a mediocre transcription model. Wispr is amazing but would hurt their pride to use a competitor.

But i feel it's more likley the experience is; GPT didn't actually improve on the raw transcription, just made it worse. Especially as any miss-transcipted words may trip it up and make it misunderstand while making the summary.

if i can choose between a potentially confused and misunderstood summary, and a badly spellchecked (flipped words) raw transcription, i would trust the latter.

Re: I’m worried that they put co-pilot in Excel

#129

I find the contrast between two narratives around technology use so fascinating: 1. We advocate automation because people like Brenda are error-prone and machines are perfect. 2. We disavow AI because people like Brenda are perfect and the machine is error-prone. These aren't contradictions because we only advocate for automation in limited contexts: when the task is understandable, the execution is reliable, the pro…

Humans, legacy algorithmic systems, and LLM's have different error modes.

- Legacy systems typically have error modes where integrations or user interface breaks in annoying but obvious ways. Pure algorithms calculating things like payroll tend to be (relatively) rigorously developed and are highly deterministic.

- LLMs have error modes more similar to humans than legacy systems, but more limited. They're non-deterministic, make up answers sometimes, and almost never admit they can't do something; sometimes they make pure errors in arithmetic or logic too.

- Humans have even more unpredictable error modes; on top of the errors encountered in LLM's, they also have emotion, fatigue, org politics, demotivation, misaligned incentives, and so on. But because we've been dealing with working with other humans for ten thousand years we've gotten fairly good at managing each other... but it's still challenging.

LLMs probably need a mixture of "correctness tests" (like evals/unit tests) and "management" (human-in-the-loop).

Re: I’m worried that they put co-pilot in Excel

#130
post #120

"You know who's not hallucinating? Brenda" I don't know about that. There could be lots of interesting ways Brenda can (be convinced to) hallucinate.

I agree - having watched many people use Excel over the years, I'd say people often overestimate their skills. I see three categories of Excel users. First there are the people that are intimidated by it and stay away from any task involving Excel. Second are the people that know a little bit (a few basic formulas) and overestimate their skills because they only compare themselves to the first group. And the third gr…

I have seen lots and lots of different uses for Excel in my line of work:

- password database - script to automatically rename jpeg files - game - grocery lists - Book keeping (and try and not get caught for fraud several years, because the monthly spending limit is $5000 and $4999 a month is below that...) - embed/collect lots of Word documents - coloring book - Minecraft processes - Resume database - ID scans

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