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When is it better to think without words?

henrikkarlsson.xyz

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Re: When is it better to think without words?

#141

Post by godelski »

vidarh wrote: post #139
godelski wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I understand. How do you know you dream then? If it's like a switch. What are you writing down? How do you know it is unrelated. Btw, I kept pen and paper under my pillow so I could grab it right away. Even before I opened my eyes. Early on I would keep them closed for as long as I could, fighting to hold onto the memories. > I often set multiple alarms really early. The timing is really important. If yo…

> How do you know you dream then? If it's like a switch. Because the switch doesn't flick until a second or two after I've woken up. Too short that I've ever been able to even grab a pen, long enough for me to be left with a memory of having briefly remembered dreaming, but never the slightest hint of what . Of course, that also means I can't be 100% certain to know whether that memory is true. > What are you writing…

  > Because the switch doesn't flick until a second or two after I've woken up.
That sounds a lot like the "half-asleep state" being discussed before.

  > I didn't ask for help.
  > If you interpreted it as a request for help
You did right here[0]. You have to understand that I, cannot, read your mind. Nor can I hear any inflections in your voice. If you ask someone "how" you should expect them to answer. It is a reasonable and standard interpretation of such a question, especially as you continue. Getting upset at them is an extremely unreasonable thing to do.

It is not our miscommunication, it is yours.

You can take responsibility for yourself, no need to include others. I had more to write, but you clarified you didn't want help.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45694744

Re: When is it better to think without words?

#142

Post by saltcured »

vict7 wrote: post #140
saltcured wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, I have no inner monologue, and think I ruminate the same ways I think. It only has verbal content if I am remembering a recent conversation or "simulating" an anticipated one.

That is truly fascinating to me. My rumination takes a verbal form almost all the time… but it is also often related to past or anticipated conversations or interactions. With no internal monologue, you can still hear words inside your head, but it would be a more conscious effort rather than an automatic, constant process?

I rarely "hear" utterances in my mind, but that may be more aphantasia than the lack of monologue...

For a recollection, auditory aspects might be present for a high stress moment, such as someone emoting a mere word or syllable. It's more like a static vignette with a brief sound clip. It could also be non-verbal sounds.

I don't know exactly how to describe it, but general speech recollection for me is something like a train of AST fragments that I just sort of know/feel. These are some intermediate representation of verbal content, not the serialized phonemes or lexemes, but also not my core thought mode either, which is somehow non-verbal semantics.

I also get this train of AST fragments from reading or from trying to compose text in my head. These verbal units are larger than words, shorter than sentences or paragraphs, and I'm not sure they always align with what you would call grammatical phrases either. This train can have a timing aspect to it which correlates with the remembered or planned cadence of speech, a bit like some cue sheet. Or it could correlate with written structures.

Ironically, I like poetry but have no appreciation for "spoken word". To me, the structure of rhyme and meter is felt almost spatially when I read the page in silence. Hearing it aloud is distracting, not very enjoyable, and also much harder for me to absorb the content. It's as if I don't have enough short-term memory duration to buffer what is being said and assemble the structures I want.

I like music with vocals, but I similarly don't absorb the verbal meaning that much. I like them for the musicality, tone, and emotional content. If I don't read the whole lyric on a page, I might never fully appreciate the verbal content. Weirdly, I can remember lyrics and sing along, even if I haven't read them and fully absorbed them. It's like I have recall cued to the music, but I would not be able to recite those same lines if I wasn't hearing the song to cue me for each little bit.

Re: When is it better to think without words?

#143

Post by grugagag »

treyd wrote: post #41
apricot13 wrote: post #18

This is one of those things that you don't really tend to think about (pun not intended!) until you experience a change in your thinking or meet someone who thinks like you do! > If we can avoid the compression step, and do the manipulations directly in the high-dimensional, non-linguistic, conceptual space, we can move much faster With my neurodivergent brain I've always conducted my thoughts in an "uncompressed for…

That description really resonates with me, it feels a lot like what I've been experiencing on and off for several months. I sometimes describe it like being able to see and examine an idea sitting in front of me on the table but having a hard time picking up and being able to manipulate it enough to write it out. Or like your fingers are working poorly like when it's very cold and you're not wearing gloves.

It only takes some practice to get better at it even if it doesn’t come naturally to you. I think it’s worth working on our weakest skills, over time it compounds quite nicely.

Re: When is it better to think without words?

#144

Post by karmakaze »

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #93
karmakaze wrote: post #27

I knew a really great programmer. He was also a classical pianist (and unrelatedly an astronomer). Well anyway he wrote large entire programs with mostly two character variable names. He usually conceives entire programs in his head and would write them out using whatever symbols were still available. Most of the time, I would see him sitting and swaying in his office chair and maybe touching fingertips while looking…

I would say that this is the intuitive, naive way of starting coding if no one has taught you coding or you haven't had to care about maintainability or other people reading your code.

Here's an example of a recent HN post for illustration[0]

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45800777

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