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When is it better to think without words?

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Re: When is it better to think without words?

#131

Post by saltcured »

vict7 wrote: post #120
Viliam1234 wrote: post #113

People find out that we actually think in different ways. Five minutes later: Someone writes an article about why his way of thinking is superior.

Yep, as someone whose brain is biased towards a higher verbal IQ and thinks primarily in words, a lot of the replies to this post are amusing. I have genuine curiosity about those that claim to think in “pure abstract thoughts” or whatever. I don’t believe my way of thinking is superior. I’m certain that my constant internal monologue is strongly correlated to my tendency to ruminate. Or, I struggle with concepts tha…

FWIW, I have no inner monologue, and think I ruminate the same ways I think. It only has verbal content if I am remembering a recent conversation or "simulating" an anticipated one.

Re: When is it better to think without words?

#132

Post by quacked »

agentcoops wrote: post #110
vidarh wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dream in images but have only once in my life seen anything but darkness or vague abstract patterns with no connection to imagery with my eyes closed in a waking state. I don't remember my dreams longer than a few seconds after waking up. Just reaching for a pen would be too slow. But I have a persistent inner monologue that only ever stops with effort when I sit down to meditate.

Same—including the time I dabbled in “experience altering” compounds when much younger. I always find it so strange that many people, including in this thread, find the presence of language in their inner experience unsettling or “imperfect”—-I really wouldn’t trade my inner monologue for anything…

Can you type out some of your inner monologue? I don't have one. I can't imagine what it would even say.

Re: When is it better to think without words?

#133

Post by quacked »

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #94
theshrike79 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember them for as long as I read it and then it goes away. It always baffled me when a movie adaptation of a book came out and people were really upset that the characters looked wrong. And I was just "... you remember what the people in books look like??". It turns out they do. I don't. When I read a book, I kinda retain the "feeling" of the characters and maybe one or two visual traits. I can read thousands of…

Yeah I never understood descriptions or who the intended audience of those long winded descriptive words is, but if other people have this magical capability of getting visual imagery out of it, I guess sure. It is hard to believe, but it must be the case. It is so hard to fathom that other people process things so differently, but I guess it can also explain a lot.

Original commenter for this chain here--my mental imagery for books is so strong that I can read books two decades later and call up close to the original visual memories that I had when I first read the books. My favorite books are the Lord of the Rings volumes, and I can remember different imagery I had from each successive generation of reading the book (from before I saw the movies and the Tolkien art to after).

Re: When is it better to think without words?

#134

Post by godelski »

vidarh wrote: post #127
godelski wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Focus real hard and make it a practice. You'll need to try every night. Most importantly, have patience. I started like you. Basically it disappeared instantly. @agentcoops is right that the still sleepy state helps. Your last few sleep cycles have the longest REM, so that is likely going to be the best time. But you really need to want to do it. By turning it into a habit your brain will start recognizing that it is…

I don't "maintain a sleepy state". When I wake up, I wake up, and the dream is gone long before I'd be able to get a pen. All of it . It's pretty much like flicking a switch. I'll often make notes first thing after waking up, and they're never unintelligible, but they'll also never be related to dreams, because the dreams are gone by the time I've picked up a pen, even if it's right next to my bed. I often set multip…

I'm not sure I understand.

How do you know you dream then? If it's like a switch. What are you writing down? How do you know it is unrelated.

Btw, I kept pen and paper under my pillow so I could grab it right away. Even before I opened my eyes. Early on I would keep them closed for as long as I could, fighting to hold onto the memories.

  > I often set multiple alarms really early.
The timing is really important. If you do the "normal" thing of seeing them 30 minutes apart then thats not going to work. A sleep cycle is 90-120 minutes and REM is the last stage. There's variance day to day, so you'll really have to iterate on what it right. Luckily the REM stage is a good portion of that time, so it gives you a decent window to hit. Try to aim for 3/4 of the way through. More than half so the intensity of the dream is high but not too close to the end because you'll be naturally winding down.

It can also help to try things that help people lucid dream. Even if you don't get control of the dream I've found that being lucid typically helps with remembering. But I never found that easy, though it was easier when I started dreaming more. My usual trigger is when I read something a second time I'll notice it says something different. My friend has a weird one, their teeth fall out lol.

  > To me this feels incredibly presumptuous in assuming peoples brains work the same
I think you're misinterpreting. By the nature of the conversation I know for a fact your brain works differently. *The entire premise of the conversation is based on this fact.*

But the advice I can give you is based on my experience. It's not an instruction set that gives guaranteed results, it is a guide. It is guess work. I have to distill what worked for me and try to target based on the little information you've provided. What are you expecting? That's a typical way to share advice and try to help.

Ultimately it'll have to be up to you to fill in the details and adapt. No perfect instruction set exists unless you make the assumption you accuse me of. I'm not sure why you're suddenly dismissive. I didn't say you're doing anything wrong or accuse you of anything.

You asked for help, I'm just trying my best.

Re: When is it better to think without words?

#135

Post by Rileyen »

Sometimes my mind feels the clearest when it’s quiet. Ideas just keep coming when I’m in the shower, zoning out, or about to fall asleep. But the moment I sit down at my computer to write them down, they vanish. Does this happen to anyone else? Or do you need to speak or write things out to get your thoughts moving?

Re: When is it better to think without words?

#136

Post by mewpmewp2 »

quacked wrote: post #133
mewpmewp2 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I never understood descriptions or who the intended audience of those long winded descriptive words is, but if other people have this magical capability of getting visual imagery out of it, I guess sure. It is hard to believe, but it must be the case. It is so hard to fathom that other people process things so differently, but I guess it can also explain a lot.

Original commenter for this chain here--my mental imagery for books is so strong that I can read books two decades later and call up close to the original visual memories that I had when I first read the books. My favorite books are the Lord of the Rings volumes, and I can remember different imagery I had from each successive generation of reading the book (from before I saw the movies and the Tolkien art to after).

Well... that definitely makes me envious. But also in a way it gives me relief, because during school times I always felt some sort of personal failure or laziness that I found some of the things so boring to read, but it makes sense if there's just a processing difference that doesn't give me that no matter how I try. But it must be wonderful then for you, because there's so many different books to read vs amount of high quality films/shows on any topic you desire.

Without discussing this and understanding how processing can truly differ like that I could go a lifetime wondering how people can read fiction etc, and how is it possible that I don't get what they are getting. I wonder if some drugs might allow me to get the same out of fiction books.

Another discouraging note from school times was that whenever I tried myself to read the mandatory literature fully myself, and formed my own conclusions I got bad grades and no one understood what I was getting at or what my conclusions were about, but when I just read summaries and conclusions on the Internet it was easy to get perfect grades. Too many of those things during school which made me feel delusional/crazy. Oh well. The rant went off-topic, but I just have I guess "vivid" memories of how school affected me emotionally in terms of self esteem and confidence. I remember just having my own thoughts, conclusions punished, while not understanding others, but still having to learn and memorize those facts even when I didn't understand how they came to be.

Re: When is it better to think without words?

#137

Post by mewpmewp2 »

gryfft wrote: post #96
mewpmewp2 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am much better with written too, but more so I feel because my monologue under pressure from scratch wouldn't be as focused or systematic since in social situations there are so many random questions, factors, and things to process. While on my own I can let my monologue systematically work in its specific tempo without being interrupted. Searching physical items is something I am terrible at, usually because my mo…

> It is really, really hard for me to direct my monologue to everyday routine activities. +1 to that, I would say it's virtually impossible for me, and I really entirely on nonverbal/muscle memory for said things, and that's the only reason I'm able to function at a "bathes and eats" level, much less gainful employment. It might not be neurologically accurate, but it sure feels like I have a verbal hemisphere and a n…

Yeah, I'm a huge mess at home, I'm pretty sure I must be 99th percentile in terms of messiness and organization at home. It kind of causes me constant feeling of shame, but I'm not sure how to handle it either. Of course I've tried various ADHD medication etc. I'm getting mid 30s and still don't have a solution for this. I have done rushes of clean up/organization of 4+ hours, but I can never keep it up daily or weekly. In a way I feel like I'm an impostor of a functioning adult, trying to get things organized at last minute when it's truly required, I've tried to embrace it, but there must be a limit to what people are willing to accept. I'm kind of like a slave observer to what I'm interested in.

Re: When is it better to think without words?

#138

Post by stOneskull »

cnees wrote: post #20

I've certainly noticed a bit of a pattern where programmers who can listen to podcasts or lyrics while they code (I can't; I rely too much on my verbal center for coding) can operate much faster and solve more complex problems than your average bear. They're rare, so I don't have enough data to feel certain, but I have a suspicion that sometimes they're forced into it by living in noisy environments where tuning out…

do you find music without lyrics helps? i do for sure. a bit of bach or beethoven, or some dub kinda music.

Re: When is it better to think without words?

#139

Post by vidarh »

godelski wrote: post #134
vidarh wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't "maintain a sleepy state". When I wake up, I wake up, and the dream is gone long before I'd be able to get a pen. All of it . It's pretty much like flicking a switch. I'll often make notes first thing after waking up, and they're never unintelligible, but they'll also never be related to dreams, because the dreams are gone by the time I've picked up a pen, even if it's right next to my bed. I often set multip…

I'm not sure I understand. How do you know you dream then? If it's like a switch. What are you writing down? How do you know it is unrelated. Btw, I kept pen and paper under my pillow so I could grab it right away. Even before I opened my eyes. Early on I would keep them closed for as long as I could, fighting to hold onto the memories. > I often set multiple alarms really early. The timing is really important. If yo…

> How do you know you dream then? If it's like a switch.

Because the switch doesn't flick until a second or two after I've woken up. Too short that I've ever been able to even grab a pen, long enough for me to be left with a memory of having briefly remembered dreaming, but never the slightest hint of what. Of course, that also means I can't be 100% certain to know whether that memory is true.

> What are you writing down? How do you know it is unrelated.

Notes on what I'm planning to do for the day. I can't of course know 100% for certain it is unrelated, but I have no reason to believe it is related either.

> If you do the "normal" thing of seeing them 30 minutes apart then thats not going to work.

That's never been what I've done. I've at times worked in weird patterns because I've found I work best at night, and so when that's fit in with my family life, I've often gone to sleep for 2-4 hours before then getting up to work, and timing that to REM is critical exactly because I will certainly be extra tired if I wake up at the wrong stage. I experiemented a lot with timing to get that right, and it's never affected my recollection of dreams at all.

> You asked for help, I'm just trying my best.

I didn't ask for help. I asked a mostly rhetorical question based on what to me seems like a flawed assumption about how trainable this is. Your clarification here is much more reasonable. If you interpreted it as a request for help, there's our disconnect, and why I'm being dismissive. Sorry for our miscommunication on that.

Re: When is it better to think without words?

#140

Post by vict7 »

saltcured wrote: post #131
vict7 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, as someone whose brain is biased towards a higher verbal IQ and thinks primarily in words, a lot of the replies to this post are amusing. I have genuine curiosity about those that claim to think in “pure abstract thoughts” or whatever. I don’t believe my way of thinking is superior. I’m certain that my constant internal monologue is strongly correlated to my tendency to ruminate. Or, I struggle with concepts tha…

FWIW, I have no inner monologue, and think I ruminate the same ways I think. It only has verbal content if I am remembering a recent conversation or "simulating" an anticipated one.

That is truly fascinating to me. My rumination takes a verbal form almost all the time… but it is also often related to past or anticipated conversations or interactions.

With no internal monologue, you can still hear words inside your head, but it would be a more conscious effort rather than an automatic, constant process?

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