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When is it better to think without words?

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Re: When is it better to think without words?

#121

Post by ericschn »

anthonypasq wrote: post #115
Dilettante_ wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've too often made the experience of having something that feels significant and whole in my head, and in the process of trying to articulate it to another person, it becomes almost completely lost. What comes out is a two-dimensional, crippled shadow of the original idea, and it (this is the worst part) cuts off my connection to the complex form.

This is why writing is important. it gives you the time to actually thinking about the best words to represent what is in your head. you may still fail, but it will usually be better than whatever comes dribbling out of your mouth. unfortunately, if knowledge isnt written down in some form, (code, english etc) then it doesnt really exist in a civilization sense, so you need to get good at writing. see all Paul Graham…

I fully agree. I think of it as exercising the muscle in the mind that acts as the "translation layer" between abstract concepts and human language. It is tough to convey complex ideas in word, but you can grow that skill with practice.

Re: When is it better to think without words?

#122

Post by 7402 »

Am I the only one like this?

In my long programming career I feel I did most of my programming nonverbally - large programs always felt I was sculpting a big chunk of stone rather than writing an essay.

Once it was done, I had no problem describing it, discussing it, documenting it, etc. But the actual task of programming felt like it was going on the non-verbal part of my brain.

These were mostly big programs, by the way: hard-real-time, or machine control, or threaded C++, or scientific data processing.

I found my style to be generally incompatible with pair-programming - except for pair debugging once my or someone else's code was written, that I did find useful.

Re: When is it better to think without words?

#123

Post by rufus_foreman »

"My general theory since 1971 has been that language is literally a virus, and that it has not been recognized as such because it has achieved a state of relatively stable symbiosis with its human host; that is to say, the Word Virus … has established itself so firmly as an accepted part of the human organism that it can now sneer at gangster viruses like smallpox and turn them in to the Pasteur Institute. But the Word clearly bears the single identifying feature of virus: it is an organism with no internal function other than to replicate itself."

-- William S. Burroughs

Re: When is it better to think without words?

#124

Post by godelski »

vidarh wrote: post #105
godelski wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't remember my dreams longer than a few seconds after waking up. Just reaching for a pen would be too slow. FWIW, this gets better after practice

How? I've tried writing it down many times over the years, but never recalled anything by the time I've been able to pick up anything to write with. Not a word.

Focus real hard and make it a practice. You'll need to try every night. Most importantly, have patience.

I started like you. Basically it disappeared instantly. @agentcoops is right that the still sleepy state helps. Your last few sleep cycles have the longest REM, so that is likely going to be the best time. But you really need to want to do it. By turning it into a habit your brain will start recognizing that it is important, so to keep it.

I highly suggest using pen and paper. Do not write on your phone. It'll help with maintaining that sleepy state. It's okay if they are just scribbles and illegible. It's better to start writing illegible nonsense than waking up and making it readable. This is especially true in the beginning. It's okay, it'll come with time. Just write down anything you can remember. A color, feeling, emotion, smell, taste, or anything. You can help the habit by writing "nothing" in it, just as a note to remind your mind that you're trying. I cannot stress the importance of the habit. The real reason the dream journal works is because you are teaching yourself that this is important to remember. Just like taking notes in class. Even if you never read them back, the act of note taking helps build that mental pathway.

Honestly, it may take a month (or more if you're really "bad"[0]) to write your first full dream. But you should be able to get something in a week or two. Remember, it took me a week to just recall a color. That's not abnormal. If after a few weeks you still have nothing, then set two alarms in the morning an hour or two before you normally wake up. The alarms should be about 45-60 minutes from the first. What you're trying to do is wake yourself up towards the end of REM, so trial and error might help. You're targeting the last or second to last cycle. But there's 2 reasons I suggest not starting there. 1) You haven't built the habit yet, so it's going to be less useful. 2) Disrupting REM leads you to feeling less rested, even if you got enough hours. You can also get less reliable results with a single alarm and it is probably better to start there, try to time it with your normal alarm.

[0] Not that you are doing anything wrong. Just that it is harder for you, which might be a thing given your condition.

Re: When is it better to think without words?

#125

Post by amirmi78 »

apricot13 wrote: post #18

This is one of those things that you don't really tend to think about (pun not intended!) until you experience a change in your thinking or meet someone who thinks like you do! > If we can avoid the compression step, and do the manipulations directly in the high-dimensional, non-linguistic, conceptual space, we can move much faster With my neurodivergent brain I've always conducted my thoughts in an "uncompressed for…

Would you tell what illness it is if you don't mind?

Re: When is it better to think without words?

#126

Post by shakna »

NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #47
shakna wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a better way to show this, would be that anendophasia [0] is a thing. Some people have no inner voice, but aren't thoughtless automatons. They can still task-switch the same as everyone else. [0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38728320/

On 4chan and reddit, they actually believe that those without an "inner monologue" have no soul.

Just to underpin how wrong this comment is, I - the person who posted the medical explanation - have been rather active on both those platforms.

Re: When is it better to think without words?

#127

Post by vidarh »

godelski wrote: post #124
vidarh wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How? I've tried writing it down many times over the years, but never recalled anything by the time I've been able to pick up anything to write with. Not a word.

Focus real hard and make it a practice. You'll need to try every night. Most importantly, have patience. I started like you. Basically it disappeared instantly. @agentcoops is right that the still sleepy state helps. Your last few sleep cycles have the longest REM, so that is likely going to be the best time. But you really need to want to do it. By turning it into a habit your brain will start recognizing that it is…

I don't "maintain a sleepy state". When I wake up, I wake up, and the dream is gone long before I'd be able to get a pen. All of it. It's pretty much like flicking a switch. I'll often make notes first thing after waking up, and they're never unintelligible, but they'll also never be related to dreams, because the dreams are gone by the time I've picked up a pen, even if it's right next to my bed.

I often set multiple alarms really early. It's never made any difference to my dreams just "switching off".

To me this feels incredibly presumptuous in assuming peoples brains work the same, which is something I'm generally extremely sceptical to given how different I've learned we actually are.

Re: When is it better to think without words?

#128

Post by vidarh »

agentcoops wrote: post #108
vidarh wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How? I've tried writing it down many times over the years, but never recalled anything by the time I've been able to pick up anything to write with. Not a word.

For me, it’s dependent on waking up in a half-dreaming state. Then I’m able to sort of “translate” the dream into language, which I remember—-and sometimes from there I can get back to parts of the dream I didn’t think I remembered. It’s still very rare for me and I’ll go years without remembering a single dream—-in fact, mentioning this to friends when I was younger was one of the first areas where I learned my cons…

I don't recall ever waking up in a "half-dreaming state".

Re: When is it better to think without words?

#129

Post by jononor »

yapyap wrote: post #71
apricot13 wrote: post #18

This is one of those things that you don't really tend to think about (pun not intended!) until you experience a change in your thinking or meet someone who thinks like you do! > If we can avoid the compression step, and do the manipulations directly in the high-dimensional, non-linguistic, conceptual space, we can move much faster With my neurodivergent brain I've always conducted my thoughts in an "uncompressed for…

I get what you’re saying, in my own way. But what I do not get is how you would convey these thoughts to someone else that thinks the same way as you, seeing as these thoughts don’t neccesarily seem to be contained to words or sentences.

All language is referential. Even in everyday speech the meaning is not in the words themselves, in so much as they are pointers to concepts that (hopefully) exists already in the brains of the people we are conversing with. So when someone is very well aligned, one can convey ideas that go much further than conventionally expressed in the "general" language which is mutually intellible with most speakers of the same language. It is a rare experience though, at least for deep or personal topics.

Re: When is it better to think without words?

#130

Post by Dilettante_ »

anthonypasq wrote: post #115
Dilettante_ wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've too often made the experience of having something that feels significant and whole in my head, and in the process of trying to articulate it to another person, it becomes almost completely lost. What comes out is a two-dimensional, crippled shadow of the original idea, and it (this is the worst part) cuts off my connection to the complex form.

This is why writing is important. it gives you the time to actually thinking about the best words to represent what is in your head. you may still fail, but it will usually be better than whatever comes dribbling out of your mouth. unfortunately, if knowledge isnt written down in some form, (code, english etc) then it doesnt really exist in a civilization sense, so you need to get good at writing. see all Paul Graham…

>Paul Grahams essays on writing

Wow, thanks for the recommendation. I sat down and read a handful over the past couple of hours and really got a lot out of them.

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