Live data from Hacker News

How OpenAI uses complex and circular deals to fuel its multibillion-dollar rise

nytimes.com

41–50 of 428 posts

Re: How OpenAI uses complex and circular deals to fuel its multibillion-dollar rise

#41

These kinds of deals were very much a la mode just prior to the .com crash. Companies would buy advertising, then the websites and ad agencies would buy their services and they'd spend it again on advertising. The end result is immense revenues without profits.

Circular investments were also a compounding factor in the Japanese asset price bubble.

The practice was known as “zaitech”

> zaitech - financial engineering

> In 1984, Japan’s Ministry of Finance permitted companies to operate special accounts for their shareholdings, known as tokkin accounts. These accounts allowed companies to trade securities without paying capital gains tax on their profits.

> At the same time, Japanese companies were allowed to access the Eurobond market in London. Companies issued warrant bonds, a combination of traditional corporate bonds with an option (the “warrant") to purchase shares in the company at a specified price before expiry. Since Japanese shares were rising, the warrants became more valuable, allowing companies to issue bonds with low-interest payments.

> The companies, in turn, placed the money they raised into their tokkin accounts that invested in the stock market. Note the circularity: companies raised money by selling warrants that relied on increasing stock prices, which was used to buy more shares, thus increasing their gains from investing in the stock market.

https://www.capitalmind.in/insights/lost-decades-japan-1980s...

Re: How OpenAI uses complex and circular deals to fuel its multibillion-dollar rise

#43
post #37

Here is a charitable perspective on what's happening: - Nvidia has too much cash because of massive profits and has nowhere to reinvest them internally. - Nvidia instead invests in other companies that use their gpus by providing them deals that must be spent on nvidia products. - This accelerates the growth of these companies, drives further lock in to nvidia's platform, and gives nvidia an equity stake in these com…

[deleted]

Re: How OpenAI uses complex and circular deals to fuel its multibillion-dollar rise

#44

These kinds of deals were very much a la mode just prior to the .com crash. Companies would buy advertising, then the websites and ad agencies would buy their services and they'd spend it again on advertising. The end result is immense revenues without profits.

There’s one key difference in my opinion: pre-.com deals were buying revenue with equity and nothing else. It was growth for growth’s sake. All that scale delivered mostly nothing.

OpenAI applies the same strategy, but they’re using their equity to buy compute that is critical to improving their core technology. It’s circular, but more like a flywheel and less like a merry-go-round. I have some faith it could go another way.

Re: How OpenAI uses complex and circular deals to fuel its multibillion-dollar rise

#45

I honestly don’t get it. People love being swindled? Or people have enough cash to throw into the swindling machine even for no gain? Must be nice.

Modern finance is all about debt.

Central banks don't print money[1] but investment banks do. Think about it like this: Someone deposits $100. The bank pays interest, to make money on to pay that interest, ~$90 is loaned out to someone.

Now, I still have a bank slip that says $100 in the account, and the bank has given $90 of that to someone else. We now have $190 in the economy! The catch is, that money needs to be paid back, so when people need to call in that cash, suddenly the economy only has $10, because the loan needed to be paid back, causing a cash vacuum.

But that paying back is also where the profit is, because you sell off the loan book, and you can get all your money back, including future interest. So you have lent out $90, sold the right to collect the repayments to someone else as a bond, so you now have $120, a profit of $30

That $30 comes pretty much from nowhere. (there are caveats....)

Now we have my bank account, after say a year with $104 in it, the bank has $26 pure profit AND someone has a bond "worth" $90 which pays $8 a year. but guess what, that bond is also a store of value. So even though its debt, it acts as money/value/whatever.

Now, the numbers are made up, so are the percentages. but the broad thrust is there.

[1] they do

Re: How OpenAI uses complex and circular deals to fuel its multibillion-dollar rise

#46

This is such a strange article -- there's nothing particularly unusual going on here. The first example basically stands in for all of them -- Microsoft invests $13B in OpenAI, and OpenAI spends $13B on Azure. This is literally just OpenAI purchasing Microsoft cloud usage with OpenAI's stock rather than its cash . There is nothing unusual, illicit, or deceptive about this. This is entirely normal. You can finance you…

> Microsoft invests $13B in OpenAI, and OpenAI spends $13B on Azure.

This isn't deceiving any investors.

It's Microsoft increasing its revenue by selling its stock.

Re: How OpenAI uses complex and circular deals to fuel its multibillion-dollar rise

#47

Given that AI is a national security matter now, I'd expect the U.S.A to step in and rescue certain companies in the event of a crash. However, I'd give higher chances to NVIDIA than OpenAI. Weights are easily transferrable and the expertise is in the engineers, but ability to continue making advanced chips is not as easily transferred.

Why is ML knowledge "in the engineers" while chip manufacturing apparently sits in the company/hardware/something else than the engineers/humans?

Read up a bit on the effort needed to get a fab going, and the yield rates. While engineers are crucial in the setup, the fab itself is not as 'fungible' as the employees involved.

I can spin up a strong ML team through hiring in probably 6-12 months with the right funding. Building a chip fab and getting it to a sensible yield would take 3-5 years, significantly more funding, strong supply lines, etc.

Re: How OpenAI uses complex and circular deals to fuel its multibillion-dollar rise

#48

Given that AI is a national security matter now, I'd expect the U.S.A to step in and rescue certain companies in the event of a crash. However, I'd give higher chances to NVIDIA than OpenAI. Weights are easily transferrable and the expertise is in the engineers, but ability to continue making advanced chips is not as easily transferred.

If they're too-important-to-fail they're too important not to be broken up or nationalised.

Re: How OpenAI uses complex and circular deals to fuel its multibillion-dollar rise

#49

Okay, that article is a little bit shallow. I just summarises the headlines of the last weeks of circular deals. But is there also a more in depth article that sheds a little more light onto what this actually means? From a financial perspective?

Ed Zitron has been shouting into the void about this for quite some time: https://www.wheresyoured.at/the-case-against-generative-ai/

He also has a podcast called Better Offline, which is slightly too ad heavy for my taste. Nevertheless, with my meagre understanding of the large corporate finances I was not able to find any errors in his core argument regardless of his somewhat sensationalist style of writing.

Post reply on HN