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AWS to bare metal two years later: Answering your questions about leaving AWS

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Re: AWS to bare metal two years later: Answering your questions about leaving AWS

#331
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was about to rage at you over the first sentence, because this is so often how people start trying to argue bare metal setups are expensive. But after reading the rest: 100% this. I see so many people push AWS setups not because it's the best thing - it can be if you're not cost sensitive - but because it is what they know and they push what they know instead of evaluating the actual requirements.

The weird thing is I'm old enough to have grown up in the pre-cloud world, and most of the stuff, like file servers, proxies, dbs, etc. isn't any more difficult to set up than AWS stuff, it's just that the skills are different Also there's a mindset difference - if I gave you a server with 32 cores you wouldn't design a microservice system on it, would you? After all there's nowhere to scale to. But with AWS, you're…

> But with AWS, you're sold the story of infinite compute you can just expect to be there, but you'll quickly find out just how stingy they can get with giving you more hardware automatically to scale to.

This is key.

Most people never scale to a size where they hit that limit, and in most organisations where that happens, someone else have to deal with it, and so most developers are totally unaware of just how fictional the "infinite scalability" actually is.

Yet it gets touted as a critical advantage.

At the same time, most developers have never ever tried to manage modern server harware, and seem think it is somehwat like managing the hardware they're using at home.

Re: AWS to bare metal two years later: Answering your questions about leaving AWS

#332
post #11

I'm so surprised there is so much pushback against this.. AWS is extremely expensive. The use cases for setting up your system or service entirely in AWS are more rare than people seem to realise. Maybe I'm just the old man screaming at cloud (no pun intended) but when did people forget how to run a baremetal server ? > We have 730+ days with 99.993% measured availability and we also escaped AWS region wide downtime…

> when did people forget how to run a baremetal server ?

Bigger question: When did people forget that doing that is much easier than AWS...

Re: AWS to bare metal two years later: Answering your questions about leaving AWS

#333
post #9

It's an interesting article, thanks for that. What people forget about the OVH or Hetzner comparison is that for those entry servers they are known for, think the Advance line with OVH or AX with Hetzner. Those boxes come with some drawbacks. The OVH Advance line for example comes without ECC memory, in a server, that might host databases. It's a disaster waiting to happen. There is no option to add ECC memory with t…

I can't believe how affordable Hetzner is. I just rented a bare metal 48 core AMD EPYC 9454P with 256 GB of ram and two 2 TB NVME ssds for $200/month (or $0.37 per hour). Its hard to directly compare with AWS, but I think its about 10x cheaper.

Wow. Probably performs better too, with a recent CPU and non-"elastic" disk. What about ingress/egress?

Re: AWS to bare metal two years later: Answering your questions about leaving AWS

#334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, they aren't wrong about the bare metal either: Every organization ends up tied to their staff, and said staff was hired to work on the stack you are using. People end up in quite the fights because their supposed experts are more fond of uniformity and learning nothing new. Many a company was stuck with a datacenter unit that was unresponsive to the company's needs, and people migrated to AWS to avoid dealing w…

Your comment also jogged my memory of how terrible bare metal days used to be. I think now with containers it can be better but the other reason so many switched to cloud is we don’t need to think about buying the bare metal ahead of time. We don’t need to justify it to a DevOps gatekeeper.

The catch is that bare metal is SO cheap and performant that you can buy legions of it and have it lying around. And datacenters, their APIs and whatnot advanced so much that you can even have automations that automatically provision and set up your bare metal servers. With containers, it gets even better.

And, lets face it - arent you already overprovisioning on the cloud because you cant risk your users waiting 1-2 minutes until your new nodes and pods get up? So basically the 'autoscaling' of cloud has always been a myth.

Re: AWS to bare metal two years later: Answering your questions about leaving AWS

#335

These are the features that AWS provides (1) Massive expansion of budget (100 - 1000x) to support empire building. Instead of one minimum-wage sysadmin with 2 high-availability, maxed-out servers for 20K - 40K (and 4-hour response time from Dell/HPE), you can have 100M multi-cloud Kubernetes + Lambda + a mix-and-match of various locked-in cloud services (DB, etc.). And you can have a large army of SRE/DevOps. You get…

You say cloud allows massive expansion like it's a negative but it can be boon for a pre-pmf startup or a scaleup. You simply don't have to worry much about capacity planning in cloud and that can be a huge time/effort saver.

Sure, if you're only growing <30% YoY and already paying several millions for cloud and bandwidth/storage are large fraction of that, by staying in cloud you're proving your incompetence as an engineering org.

Re: AWS to bare metal two years later: Answering your questions about leaving AWS

#336
post #11

I'm so surprised there is so much pushback against this.. AWS is extremely expensive. The use cases for setting up your system or service entirely in AWS are more rare than people seem to realise. Maybe I'm just the old man screaming at cloud (no pun intended) but when did people forget how to run a baremetal server ? > We have 730+ days with 99.993% measured availability and we also escaped AWS region wide downtime…

The "value add" of AWS has never been what it can do or does. It has always appealed to weak/incompetent/sociopathic managers and execs desire to not have to deal with capable employees.

As far as they are concerned AWS is taking care of computing AND hiring for them.

I've never worked anywhere that at least some sort of power holder would instantly go to consultants or outsourcing rather than in house because they believe that if you work for the company you must be incompetent, dumb or below average. If you don't work for them you must be exceptional.

Re: AWS to bare metal two years later: Answering your questions about leaving AWS

#337
post #11

I'm so surprised there is so much pushback against this.. AWS is extremely expensive. The use cases for setting up your system or service entirely in AWS are more rare than people seem to realise. Maybe I'm just the old man screaming at cloud (no pun intended) but when did people forget how to run a baremetal server ? > We have 730+ days with 99.993% measured availability and we also escaped AWS region wide downtime…

AWS may be overcharging but it's a balancing act. Going on-prem (well, shared DC) will be cheaper but comes with requirements for either jack of all trades sysadmins or a bunch of specialists. It can work well if your product is simple and scalable. A lot of places quietly achieve this. That said, I've seen real world scenarios where complexity is up the wazoo and an opex cost focus means you're hiring under skilled…

> AWS may be overcharging but it's a balancing act. Going on-prem (well, shared DC) will be cheaper but comes with requirements for either jack of all trades sysadmins or a bunch of specialists

Much easier to find. Even more, they are skills much easier to learn for existing engineers. What's better, they are fundamental skills that will never lose their value as those systems are what everything else is built on.

Re: AWS to bare metal two years later: Answering your questions about leaving AWS

#338
post #309
post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s like $24K a year. Assuming they have working failover and business continuity plans, it’s actually a really good deal (vs having a 10-20% time employee deal with it).

AWS doesn't get magically expensive just because you put your website there. You don't get to an overcomplicated AWS madness without having a few engineers already pushing complexity. And an overcomplicated setup also means it needs maintenance. There are no personnel savings there.

For one VM, EBS with backups gives you business continuity.

You could get manual failover with a single writer replicated managed Postgres setup and a warm VM.

That’s on the order of a thousand a month for a medium workload. It’s probably a 10x markup vs buying the servers, but it doesn’t matter if it saves an employee.

Re: AWS to bare metal two years later: Answering your questions about leaving AWS

#339
post #338
post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AWS doesn't get magically expensive just because you put your website there. You don't get to an overcomplicated AWS madness without having a few engineers already pushing complexity. And an overcomplicated setup also means it needs maintenance. There are no personnel savings there.

For one VM, EBS with backups gives you business continuity. You could get manual failover with a single writer replicated managed Postgres setup and a warm VM. That’s on the order of a thousand a month for a medium workload. It’s probably a 10x markup vs buying the servers, but it doesn’t matter if it saves an employee.

It doesn’t save employees. Over-complicated infrastructure doesn’t magically appear out of nowhere. Someone has to setup and maintain. It’s expensive.

Re: AWS to bare metal two years later: Answering your questions about leaving AWS

#340
post #54
post #11

I'm so surprised there is so much pushback against this.. AWS is extremely expensive. The use cases for setting up your system or service entirely in AWS are more rare than people seem to realise. Maybe I'm just the old man screaming at cloud (no pun intended) but when did people forget how to run a baremetal server ? > We have 730+ days with 99.993% measured availability and we also escaped AWS region wide downtime…

> I'm so surprised there is so much pushback against this I'm not. It seems to be happening a lot. Any time a topic about not using AWS comes up here, or on Reddit there a sudden surge of people appearing out of nowhere shouting down anyone who suggests other options. It's honestly starting to feel like paid shilling.

Possible. However what is more likely is that a lot of long-time tech workers have vested stocks or investments in Amazon and they dont want the cash cow (AWS) to get hampered. And similarly a lot of tech workers have invested in AWS skills, so they cant risk those skills becoming less valued in the marketplace due to alternatives.
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