Using AI to negotiate a $195k hospital bill down to $33k

> I'd be interested to hear from a charge coding expert about Claude's analysis here and if it was accurate or not. There's also some free mixing of "medicare" v.s. "insurance" which often have very different billing rates. The author says they don't want to pay more than insurance would pay - but insurance pays a lot more than medicare in most cases.

I'm a cofounder of Turquoise Health and this is all we do, all day. Our purpose is to make it really easy to know the entire, all-in, upfront cost of a complex healthcare encounter under any insurance plan. You can see upfront bills for many procedures paid by various healthcare plans on our website.

The information posted in the thread is generally correct. Hospitals have fictional list prices and they on average only expect to collect ~30% of that list price from commercial insurance plans. For Medicare patients, they collect around 15%. The amount the user finally settled for was ~15% of the billed amount, so it all checks out.

The reason for fictional list prices (like everything in US healthcare) is historical, but that doesn't make it any more logical. Many hospital insurance contracts are written as "insurer will pay X% of hospital's billed charges for Y treatment" where X% is a number like 30. No one is 'supposed' to pay anywhere near the list price. Yes, this is a terrible way to do things. Yes, there are shenanigans with logging expected price reductions are 'charity' for tax purposes. But there isn't a single bad guy here. The whole system that is a mess on all sides.

Part of the problem is that the US healthcare billing system is incredibly complex. Billing is as granular as possible. It's like paying for a burger at a restaurant by paying for separate line items like the sesame seeds on the bun, the flour in the bun, the employee time to set the bun on the burger, the level of experience of the bun-setter (was it a Dr. Bun Setter or an RN bun setter?), etc. But like the user said, some of these granular charges get rolled up into a fixed rate for the main service.

However, the roll-up rules are different for every insurance contract. So saying the hospital 'billed them twice' is only maybe true. The answer would be different based on the patient's specific insurance plan and how that insurance company negotiated it. Hospitals often have little idea how much they will get paid to do X service before it happens. They just bill the insurance company and see what comes back. When a patient comes in without insurance, they don't know how to estimate the bill since there is no insurance agreement to follow. So they start from the imaginary list prices and send the patient an astronomically high bill, expecting it to be negotiated down. In some areas, there are now laws like 'you can't charge an uninsured patient more than your highest negotiated insurance rate' but these are not universal.

If you find yourself in this situation, there are good charities like 'Dollar For' that can help patients negotiate this bill down for you. We are trying to address this complexity with software and have made a lot of progress, but there is much more to do. The government has legislation (the No Surprises Act) that requires hospitals to provide upfront estimates and enter mediation if the bill varies more than $400 from that amount. But some parts of the law don't have an enforcement date set yet, which we hope changes soon.

Medicare has pretty good negotiating power, rather like the NHS. Medicare patients may not care how much Medicare is paying for their treatment, but the US government cares how much it spends on Medicare, and the IRA has given it some additional powers to negotiate drug prices in recent years.

I'm getting that most people don't know the sticker price is fraudulent (e.g. the overlapping "master procedure" and component codes) and/or are so relieved to have the charity out that they agree to it without any further questions. But OP points out that the charity out is just further fraud, victimizing tax-payers.

> Long story short, the hospital made up its own rules, its own prices, and figured it could just grab money from unsophisticated people

This is the core truth that all of healthcare in the US spins out from. A few personal experiences which back this up:

1. I received a $1500 bill because an ambulance that was sent when I called 911 was an "out of network ambulance". I looked it up: One small ambulance company in SF is in-network with that insurer. The SFFD runs the vast majority of ambulances and is "out of network." Insurance companies of course are not allowed to penalize you for accepting the first ambulance that arrives in an emergency. I filed a formal complaint with the California regulator that regulates that insurer and within 2 weeks the bill had been properly taken care of.

2. Our family has met its family Out of Pocket Maximum this year. Twice in the past month I've had doctor's offices lie to me and say that we still have to pay a copay. The last one claimed "well, you still have to meet your individual one though." Lie. That's literally the opposite of the way it works. We've paid copays to these people accidentally in previous years and they would never give the money back, they just keep it and also double dip since insurance pays them anyway.

In all cases, both hospitals and insurance companies simply ask for the maximum possible thing they can ask for, knowing that a frightening majority of people are afraid of them, and will pay whatever they're told. In OP's case, an unsophisticated payer would have gotten a $195k bill, been sent to collections, the hospital would have sold the bad debt, and then the person would have maybe "gotten a good deal" by getting it cut down to $50k over many years of high-interest payments and having ruined credit.

Insurance and hospitals are both filthy, money-grubbing machines. To paraphrase a famous cartoon character, their business is bad and they should feel bad.

Adding complexity is just one aspect. Everywhere there is someone whose job is to ensure the bottom line never changes and status quo for the powerful is preserved. Insurance, taxes, rents.. in the absence of effective regulation, the average number of successful appeals will simply get factored in and average costs go up so that profit stays the same and grows at the same rate as before. Similar to how chains factor in losses due to spoilage or theft.. of course they don't actually take a profit loss, they just price it in.

I really don't get people who see this kind of thing as empowering because in the end your (now strictly necessary) appeal with lawyers or AI to get a more fair deal just becomes a new tax on your time/money; you are worse off than before. A good capitalist will notice these dynamics, and invest in AI once it's as required for life as healthcare is, and then work on driving up the costs of AI. Big win for someone but not the downtrodden.