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Using AI to negotiate a $195k hospital bill down to $33k

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Re: Using AI to negotiate a $195k hospital bill down to $33k

#71

Post by sidewndr46 »

mjr00 wrote: post #42
ibash wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is the prices are all made up anyway. The hospital hallucinates prices, so they don’t blink an eye when an llm does the same.

Yeah, US hospital billing is based on the idea that the patient has insurance and won't really care about what their insurer gets charged. (The wider implications of this are left to the reader.) For the uninsured this sort of thing is actually really common. Had an online friend who had to get emergency treatment and they sent him a bill for $20k. His response was, "lol I'm uninsured and don't give a fuck about my c…

I used to live with a guy from Guatemala, who at some point or another wound up at the ER. At the time his insurance apparently had some huge deductible for ER visits so he got the whole bill in excess of $1000. He was going to pay it, so I suggested he just call and tell them he was planning to leave the country and not come back. I told him to tell them there was no way he could pay the full amount, but didn't want to leave a debt out there like this. They lowered the bill to $150 after a few minutes on the phone.

Re: Using AI to negotiate a $195k hospital bill down to $33k

#72

Post by nerdsniper »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #11
A_Duck wrote: post #9

It's really terrifying that someone less savvy might have spent their life savings paying this bill unnecessarily As OP says: "I had access to tools that helped me land on that number, but the moral issue is clear"

The direction is clear though; enable healthcare consumers using generative AI to appeal their bills, and scale up. If it breaks insurance companies and healthcare billing departments, well, we could fix this, right? It is a choice not to, healthcare consumers will act accordingly as rational actors in a suboptimal system. Working systems are rarely changed; failing systems at least have the opportunity for change to…

It seems like every time consumers automate against the-powers-that-be, the powers change the rules.

- Can’t just cancel credit cards to reset subscriptions/memberships, because new card info now gets forwarded to your vendors.

- Chargebacks are now much less successful, even when the consumer has clearly been wronged.

Re: Using AI to negotiate a $195k hospital bill down to $33k

#73

Post by jacquesm »

gehwartzen wrote: post #39

There’s something absurd about a hospital charging 195k for 4 hours of work with the end result of the patient being dead. Not saying the doctors did anything wrong but… oof

It's a crazy system. You can save frugally your whole life long and then two minutes to twelve the health care system swoops in and takes your estate away from you.

Re: Using AI to negotiate a $195k hospital bill down to $33k

#74

Post by ecosystem »

The American Medical Association owns copyright to all the codes and their descriptions. They have an extremely restrictive and expensive licensing options and they strictly forbid training models with the codes.

This month, the practice was called out (https://www.help.senate.gov/rep/newsroom/press/chair-cassidy...) so the Overton window may be opening.

The AMA (a nonprofit!) clears ~$300M/year revenue from the codes, which is the direct cost passed through to consumers, but the indirect costs are the byzantine nightmare of OP.

Re: Using AI to negotiate a $195k hospital bill down to $33k

#75

Post by hooverd »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #11
A_Duck wrote: post #9

It's really terrifying that someone less savvy might have spent their life savings paying this bill unnecessarily As OP says: "I had access to tools that helped me land on that number, but the moral issue is clear"

The direction is clear though; enable healthcare consumers using generative AI to appeal their bills, and scale up. If it breaks insurance companies and healthcare billing departments, well, we could fix this, right? It is a choice not to, healthcare consumers will act accordingly as rational actors in a suboptimal system. Working systems are rarely changed; failing systems at least have the opportunity for change to…

I like the idea but I'm sure that's a YC startup working on juicing revenue from patients being spun at the same time.

Re: Using AI to negotiate a $195k hospital bill down to $33k

#77

Post by jacquesm »

jack_tripper wrote: post #37
cm2012 wrote: post #13

I've just ignored any medical bill I don't agree with or think was fair ($10k+ worth in the last 10 years). At least in new york state there has been no downside for me. It never went on my credit score and I bought a house a few years ago.

>I've just ignored any medical bill As a not-American, I wonder what are the rules of this "game". Can anyone in the US just ignore their bills and debt and it's all ignored anyway? Because in most European countries, debt is a very serious thing. Even small debt like an unpaid 50 Euro bill can be sold to debt collectors who can seize your property or garnish your wage, pension or bank accounts to pay your debt plus…

It would be quite hard to run up a million euros in debt to a hospital in Europe, but in the USA that is not at all unheard of.

Re: Using AI to negotiate a $195k hospital bill down to $33k

#78

Post by thaumasiotes »

a4isms wrote: post #24
atonse wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree that even this buggy expert can empower patients. But you better believe that hospitals all over the place are also using AI to find ways around Medicare/Insurance rules to maximize their profit too. The rules are probably going to get WAY more complex because they will rely less on a few humans, and more on very powerful AIs.

Old poker adage: "The more wild cards and crazy rules, the greater the expert's advantage." Poker has nothing on Commercial Lawfare.

This reflects a common complaint in social engineering.

People keep trying to enact rules to stick it to the elites and make the downtrodden better off.

And as the rules get more and more complex, the position of the elites gets more and more solid.

Re: Using AI to negotiate a $195k hospital bill down to $33k

#79

Post by hooverd »

nerdsniper wrote: post #72
toomuchtodo wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The direction is clear though; enable healthcare consumers using generative AI to appeal their bills, and scale up. If it breaks insurance companies and healthcare billing departments, well, we could fix this, right? It is a choice not to, healthcare consumers will act accordingly as rational actors in a suboptimal system. Working systems are rarely changed; failing systems at least have the opportunity for change to…

It seems like every time consumers automate against the-powers-that-be, the powers change the rules. - Can’t just cancel credit cards to reset subscriptions/memberships, because new card info now gets forwarded to your vendors. - Chargebacks are now much less successful, even when the consumer has clearly been wronged.

I think a lot of "let's use technology to solve a social problem" takes forget to assume that both sides have access to technology.

Re: Using AI to negotiate a $195k hospital bill down to $33k

#80

Post by harambae »

cm2012 wrote: post #13

I've just ignored any medical bill I don't agree with or think was fair ($10k+ worth in the last 10 years). At least in new york state there has been no downside for me. It never went on my credit score and I bought a house a few years ago.

I did this once and, while there were no legal repercussions, the medical collection agency started calling my aging mother in the middle of the night (she still has a landline phone that will go off).

Of course, I hadn't actually lived there since I was a teenager over a decade ago, and I'm sure they knew that, but the harassment tactic worked and I just paid it.

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