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TigerBeetle and Synadia pledge $512k to the Zig Software Foundation

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Re: TigerBeetle and Synadia pledge $512k to the Zig Software Foundation

#141

Post by tredre3 »

sgt wrote: post #112
epage wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind the rule of thumb that a employee costs twice their salary, so that would be a 206k/year salary. Generous for some, low for others. The salary spread in the US is crazy.

Where does it say that an employee costs twice their salary? My experience is more like 25-30% more.

At these salary levels it might very well be closer to 25%, there's only so much fancy health insurance and 401k matching and other tax/fees you have to cover as an employer.

At a more "normal" salary the 1.5-2x figure is pretty accurate in my experience.

Re: TigerBeetle and Synadia pledge $512k to the Zig Software Foundation

#142

Post by mordnis »

GuB-42 wrote: post #88
vatsachakrvthy wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not kneeling it's literally just eliminating bugs. It's kind of like saying that we kneel to logic while doing math

The problem I have with what I call "bondage and discipline" languages is that while it has value making sure the code is correct, it is not pleasant (for me) to work with. Sometimes I just want to try out stuff, I know there is a bug, in fact, it breaks everything, but that's exactly what I want, I will revert it once my little expertement is complete. Strict languages will refuse to run anything unless you make sur…

Zig can also be annoying. For example, you cannot just ignore the return value, even in debug builds. Playing around with slices, c strings, arrays is also annoying in comparison to C.

Re: TigerBeetle and Synadia pledge $512k to the Zig Software Foundation

#143

Post by RAMJAC »

ay wrote: post #109
GuB-42 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem I have with what I call "bondage and discipline" languages is that while it has value making sure the code is correct, it is not pleasant (for me) to work with. Sometimes I just want to try out stuff, I know there is a bug, in fact, it breaks everything, but that's exactly what I want, I will revert it once my little expertement is complete. Strict languages will refuse to run anything unless you make sur…

Put Claude code on top of it and now you have prototypes of what you have in mind written pretty much instantly and they are suitable for reshaping into production later if needs to.

Lol, not that it's any good, but here is a pretty much purely vibed zig NES emulator that I let Claude work on: https://github.com/RAMJAC-digital/RAMBO It renders something.

Re: TigerBeetle and Synadia pledge $512k to the Zig Software Foundation

#144

Post by lll-o-lll »

epidemian wrote: post #104
lenkite wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think most folks would agree that Rust is an "acquired" taste. You need to kneel to the borrow-checker and develop something like a Stockholm syndrome before you find the language delicious.

> You need to kneel to the borrow-checker and develop something like a Stockholm syndrome before you find the language delicious. That was not my experience at all. I liked the language from the get-go. And the more i dug into it, the more i found to like. I really appreciated the design of Rust's iterators, and traits, and general language design, way before i stumbled into any major issues with the borrow checker.…

OOP has many short comings (enough that I would say it has been the single worst design paradigm that afflicted this industry), so Rust felt like a breath of fresh air to a c++ dev. However, many basic patterns that are employed when you are building embedded software are just needlessly difficult. Zig is the better C, and it’s just the better language for getting stuff done with total control. If I need to be high level with more I’ll reach for something else (c# provides all the optimisations I need if I’m not bit bashing). Rust feels like it has this one great trick, no gc and memory safety, but nothing else to offer.

Re: TigerBeetle and Synadia pledge $512k to the Zig Software Foundation

#145

Post by CitrusFruits »

wocram wrote: post #134
scuff3d wrote: post #107

> In all these things, what impressed me most was Zig’s approach to safety when working with the metal. Not in terms of an on/off decision, but as a spectrum. Not aiming for 100% guarantees across 1 or 2 categories, but 90% and then across more categories. Not eliminating classes of bugs, but downgrading their probability. All while preserving the power-to-weight ratio of the language, to keep the language beautifull…

Why is 90% enough?

I think the idea is that perfect is the enemy of good here and that getting from 90% to 100% involves tradeoffs that aren't actually worth it from a language ergonomics point of view.

Re: TigerBeetle and Synadia pledge $512k to the Zig Software Foundation

#146

Post by surajrmal »

coldtea wrote: post #131
surajrmal wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people stop feeling like they are fighting with rust a few months into using it. The borrow checker is something that becomes second nature and you still use the same techniques that would please the borrow checker outside of rust because it's generally better program structure in many cases and avoids bugs. If you want to do something that you know us correct that rust normally doesn't allow, just use unsafe. I…

> Most people stop feeling like they are fighting with rust a few months into using it. The borrow checker is something that becomes second nature People keep saying that, but I've also seen many who've used Rust for years, in big projects, say the opposite: it gets slightly better as you learn to oblige the borrow checker instictively, but it remains always a kind of annoyance and a friction.

Perhaps that's due to only learning how to treat the symptoms rather than the cause. Building intuition requires understanding why the compiler prefers something different. People coming from C++ tend to get this fairly quickly as they understand the problems rust solves for them, but folks coming from higher level languages don't always see it the same way because they may have not had to deal with those problems.

Re: TigerBeetle and Synadia pledge $512k to the Zig Software Foundation

#147

Post by mordnis »

Klonoar wrote: post #120
lukaslalinsky wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a way, it's a return to simpler times. I remember learning programming C and it was about programming computers, not abstract concepts. As languages got higher level abstractions, we lost touch with the computer. That's why programs are so bloated today. Zig respects that we are programming a computer, with concrete behaviours, it doesn't try to abstract things away, doesn't hide complexity, and yet gives you tool…

I truly do not understand why anyone would think Rust is abstracting things away. Like, to be clear: if you want to develop in Zig because you like it for whatever reason, you should do that. There is no world, nor will there ever be a world, where there's "one language to rule them all". This comment should not be read as "you should write Rust instead". I just don't find any of your descriptions of Zig to be things…

Well, for example, every function that allocates expects allocator as an argument, it is not abstracted away. Resource deallocation is not abstracted away, you have to explicitly free your resources. Ever function that uses IO expects it as an argument. It doesn't have operator overloading, which is also an abstraction.

It is a very explicit language.

Re: TigerBeetle and Synadia pledge $512k to the Zig Software Foundation

#148

Post by didibus »

anymouse123456 wrote: post #42
tayo42 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>leaving Rust for Zig for the sheer enjoyment of using it instead. What do people find more enjoyable?

They aren't even close. Trying to write Rust as a noob feels like being in a blackout swamp, waist deep in muck, fighting through thick air and trying, but failing to run from danger. Being utterly constrained in every direction. Writing Zig as a noob feels like having the clouds part to reveal a bright, sunny Spring clearing and suddenly being able to cover land in a cheerful group with clarity, purpose and focus. […

Kind of surprising, I could see why, but I find Zig more difficult than Rust, so ya, YMMV.

Re: TigerBeetle and Synadia pledge $512k to the Zig Software Foundation

#149

Post by cakealert »

surajrmal wrote: post #111
gorjusborg wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zig feels like a better C with modern tooling. It is a tool that works for me. Rust feels like a better C++ with modern tooling. I am a tool that works for it.

Most people stop feeling like they are fighting with rust a few months into using it. The borrow checker is something that becomes second nature and you still use the same techniques that would please the borrow checker outside of rust because it's generally better program structure in many cases and avoids bugs. If you want to do something that you know us correct that rust normally doesn't allow, just use unsafe. I…

The ergonomics of unsafe rust are abysmal. It would have been 10 times better if they just let you do inline C instead.
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