Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Apple loses UK App Store monopoly case, penalty might near $2B

9to5mac.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 411 posts

Re: Apple loses UK App Store monopoly case, penalty might near $2B

#41

Post by gpm »

crims0n wrote: post #11

Honest question, what do people think is a fair percentage? The platform development, app hosting, payment processing, and quality control is surely worth something .

As long as Apple requires they make use of those services for me to install software on the computer I bought, and they prevent others from producing equivalent competing devices via patents (i.e. government granted monopolies), zero.

It's not that it's not worth something, it's that they're abusing their patents and monopoly to extract further compensation after I already bought the device.

Re: Apple loses UK App Store monopoly case, penalty might near $2B

#42

Post by chongli »

someotherperson wrote: post #25
crims0n wrote: post #11

Honest question, what do people think is a fair percentage? The platform development, app hosting, payment processing, and quality control is surely worth something .

How much of a fee do you think you should pay to install applications on your computer? The same amount as that. Or provide alternative ways to install software. This is a problem of their own creation.

As soon as you open the door to side-loading, you'll have scammers and data-siphoners force all their users to side-load so that they can completely bypass Apple's privacy controls and security features. The entire iOS ecosystem is built on the App Store review process as a gatekeeper for entitlements and the capabilities they grant (through API access).

How do you solve that problem for side-loaded apps?

Re: Apple loses UK App Store monopoly case, penalty might near $2B

#43

Post by JimDabell »

bigyabai wrote: post #32
JimDabell wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> when every single business on the planet has to pay you 30% for access to mobile device users That doesn’t describe Apple’s situation though. Most businesses don’t distribute software at all; those that do mostly don’t need to distribute native iOS apps; those that do mostly don’t need to pay App Store fees; those that do mostly have to pay 15%. It’s only a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction that ne…

All those percentages are arbitrary, none of them are set through natural competition. Good on the UK for not backing down. 15% or 150%, Apple should not be exempted from participating in a true market economy.

What are you referring to when you say “all those percentages”? I only mention two; 15% and 30%. 30% wasn’t arbitrary; it was in line with what other platform providers like Nintendo and Sony were charging at the time. If you’re referring to the multiple fractions of fractions, then obviously a business that has nothing to do with software isn’t being coerced by Apple.

Re: Apple loses UK App Store monopoly case, penalty might near $2B

#44

Post by npinsker »

raincole wrote: post #22
crims0n wrote: post #11

Honest question, what do people think is a fair percentage? The platform development, app hosting, payment processing, and quality control is surely worth something .

The honest answer is that Apple shouldn't own iOS and its main app store at the same time. But there is not legal / regulation framework to prevent that. Case in point: Steam is taking 30% too. But you've heard much less fuss over it, right? Why? Is it because of players' cult-like behavior around Steam? (probably partially) But more importantly it's because Valve doesn't own Windows and Steam Deck is a far smaller f…

Steam's cut decreases to 20% after a certain amount of money. Also Steam does a lot more to earn their cut than any other platform, by far -- for example, they do a lot of promotion for you, both algorithmic and through things like Daily Deals, for free, whereas on iOS it is very difficult for ad spend to not be a significant part of your budget. The rule of thumb I've heard is, for every organic sale you make, Steam's algorithm will get you one more sale. So their cut feels quite worth it.

A closer example is game consoles, whose associated stores also take 30%, and nobody seems to complain about.

Re: Apple loses UK App Store monopoly case, penalty might near $2B

#45

Post by bsimpson »

raincole wrote: post #22
crims0n wrote: post #11

Honest question, what do people think is a fair percentage? The platform development, app hosting, payment processing, and quality control is surely worth something .

The honest answer is that Apple shouldn't own iOS and its main app store at the same time. But there is not legal / regulation framework to prevent that. Case in point: Steam is taking 30% too. But you've heard much less fuss over it, right? Why? Is it because of players' cult-like behavior around Steam? (probably partially) But more importantly it's because Valve doesn't own Windows and Steam Deck is a far smaller f…

You can also mod your Steam Deck to your heart's content. There's a plugin called Junk Store that will let you use other stores.

Re: Apple loses UK App Store monopoly case, penalty might near $2B

#46

Post by cedws »

gpm wrote: post #41
crims0n wrote: post #11

Honest question, what do people think is a fair percentage? The platform development, app hosting, payment processing, and quality control is surely worth something .

As long as Apple requires they make use of those services for me to install software on the computer I bought, and they prevent others from producing equivalent competing devices via patents (i.e. government granted monopolies), zero. It's not that it's not worth something, it's that they're abusing their patents and monopoly to extract further compensation after I already bought the device.

You had the choice to buy another phone.

Re: Apple loses UK App Store monopoly case, penalty might near $2B

#47

Post by gpm »

cedws wrote: post #46
gpm wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as Apple requires they make use of those services for me to install software on the computer I bought, and they prevent others from producing equivalent competing devices via patents (i.e. government granted monopolies), zero. It's not that it's not worth something, it's that they're abusing their patents and monopoly to extract further compensation after I already bought the device.

You had the choice to buy another phone.

I did not have a choice to buy another equivalent phone because patents legally forbid other companies from producing equivalent phones.

If Apple wants to take that defence, they should be required to have abandoned every patent they own on iPhones prior to my purchase of the device.

Re: Apple loses UK App Store monopoly case, penalty might near $2B

#48

Post by bitpush »

jen729w wrote: post #38
crims0n wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So in this scenario would Epic then need to develop and maintain their own toolchain and SDK for their app store? The development tools and education are also worth something, Epic shouldn’t get that for free.

Dystopian story plot: Apple completely opens up the iOS platform. Do whatever you like. Also, an XCode license is now $20,000/year. Don’t like it? Build your own.

> Also, an XCode license is now $20,000/year. Don’t like it? Build your own.

And people will. That's how competition works. If someone thinks they can make a profit by offering a) better product b) same product at a cheaper price, you'll see investment.

VCs will be pouring money to capture that market.

Re: Apple loses UK App Store monopoly case, penalty might near $2B

#49

Post by monkmartinez »

chongli wrote: post #42
someotherperson wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much of a fee do you think you should pay to install applications on your computer? The same amount as that. Or provide alternative ways to install software. This is a problem of their own creation.

As soon as you open the door to side-loading, you'll have scammers and data-siphoners force all their users to side-load so that they can completely bypass Apple's privacy controls and security features. The entire iOS ecosystem is built on the App Store review process as a gatekeeper for entitlements and the capabilities they grant (through API access). How do you solve that problem for side-loaded apps?

Does Apple have an explicit guarantee that apps can not scam or data siphon from an iPhone or iPad app?

Re: Apple loses UK App Store monopoly case, penalty might near $2B

#50

Post by mikeiz404 »

awillen wrote: post #10

"The CAT said in its ruling that developers were overcharged by the difference between a 17.5% commission for app purchases and the commission Apple charged, which Kent's lawyers said was usually 30%." Where does the 17.5% come from? I can't find it here or in the link Reuters article. Is that just the number that the tribunal decided was fair? If so I'd love to read the analysis of how they got there.

I haven't dug through the linked documents but it's probably in here some where... https://www.catribunal.org.uk/judgments/14037721-dr-rachael-...
Post reply on HN