Facebook's Gen Y Nightmare • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook's Gen Y Nightmare

#131

Post by danielweber » Mon, Sep 24, 2012, 4:23 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #58

michaelochurch wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a little hard for me to feel sympathetic with the need to conceal dishonesty on resumes. It depends what the "dishonesty" is. Claiming a skill you don't have is unethical. Bumping your college degree by 5 years in order to seem 5 years younger is, in my opinion, ethically OK. There's a difference between quackery (faking a skill you don't have, and potentially hurting people) and social status inflation. One is…

> Bumping your college degree by 5 years in order to seem 5 years younger is, in my opinion, ethically OK No. Not only is it lying, which is obviously not acceptable, but it is pandering to discriminatory attitudes. It is not legal to discriminate based on age when employing people in the UK, and thus it should be pointless to lie about age.

It is not legal to discriminate based on age when employing people in the UK, and thus it should be pointless to lie about age.

Yeah, we more or less have that in the US, too. (The details matter for specific cases, but not for general discussions.)

Yet, we still have people posting job offers like this, which demands you have gotten your PhD in the past two years.

http://parezcoydigo.wordpress.com/2012/09/10/old-phds-need-n...

I have a lot of appreciation for "you shouldn't ever lie on your resume," but I also feel for the people who feel they are being discriminated against. If someone black thought that he stood a better chance of being hired by pretending to be white (we used to call this "passing"), who am I to tell him that he should sacrifice his employment for the greater good?

If you want people to not lie about age, take away the incentive to do so.

Re: Facebook's Gen Y Nightmare

#132

Post by rmc » Mon, Sep 24, 2012, 4:54 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #16

michaelochurch wrote: post #14

LinkedIn scares me more, because I think most 22-year-olds don't really foresee that they might have the need to change their career histories. The idea that you might have to bump your college degree by 5 years is unimaginable at age 22. I don't foresee myself ever needing an explicit lie, but it's hard to keep a story consistent over 20 years. The online paper trail is a bit scary. I wouldn't even have a LinkedIn p…

It is a little hard for me to feel sympathetic with the need to conceal dishonesty on resumes. Meanwhile, we talk to lots of great people who don't have LinkedIn profiles; it is by no means a standard requirement. If you can't be honest to LinkedIn, just keep your profile off it. No matter who gets elected in November, by 2015 guaranteed-issue health insurance is going to be the norm, so this health insurance story a…

Facebook et al. can reveal aspects of one's political views. "Oh $NAME went to a pro-legal-abortion march? We don't want those sort of people here...."

Re: Facebook's Gen Y Nightmare

#133

Post by hackinthebochs » Mon, Sep 24, 2012, 5:00 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #35

michaelochurch wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a little hard for me to feel sympathetic with the need to conceal dishonesty on resumes. It depends what the "dishonesty" is. Claiming a skill you don't have is unethical. Bumping your college degree by 5 years in order to seem 5 years younger is, in my opinion, ethically OK. There's a difference between quackery (faking a skill you don't have, and potentially hurting people) and social status inflation. One is…

I would never want to work with someone who felt like lying about the year they got their college degree was "ethical". In fact, I'd really rather not have to think too much about where the ethical line is on "lying" with anyone. Does that mean I never lie? Of course it doesn't. We've all done unethical things. Ethical people call those "mistakes" and don't paper over them.

So you're also against all the little "hacks" that startups are encouraged to do to gain traction? For example making a hundred fake accounts and creating fake "activity", or a one-person startup trying to make themselves seem more established than they are through various tricks? These are all variations on the same theme.

Re: Facebook's Gen Y Nightmare

#134

Post by pc86 » Mon, Sep 24, 2012, 6:09 PM UTC

michaelochurch wrote: post #14

LinkedIn scares me more, because I think most 22-year-olds don't really foresee that they might have the need to change their career histories. The idea that you might have to bump your college degree by 5 years is unimaginable at age 22. I don't foresee myself ever needing an explicit lie, but it's hard to keep a story consistent over 20 years. The online paper trail is a bit scary. I wouldn't even have a LinkedIn p…

> The idea that you might have to bump your college degree by 5 years is unimaginable at age 22.

Or to anyone with a conscience who doesn't want to become known as a liar.

Re: Facebook's Gen Y Nightmare

#135

Post by pc86 » Mon, Sep 24, 2012, 6:20 PM UTC

cmccabe wrote: post #107

michaelochurch wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is that people get fired and sometimes even humiliated over minor deceptions (like "playing" with dates) while companies routinely protect managers who do much worse things that actually hurt people-- things like promising good reviews and writing bad ones, abusing process for retaliatory or deceptive purposes, and hiring multiple people for the same leadership role at the same time. "Rules are for the prol…

What a disgusting response. "Someone else may or may not have done something worse at some point, so anything I do is ok." By the way, you may want to Google for Scott Thompson. He was a CEO of Yahoo, until they found out that he had lied on his resume. It isn't just "the proles" who get into trouble because of dishonesty. P.S. I don't consider it wrong to leave jobs off your resume if you feel like they are not impo…

I don't know anyone, even in HR, who expects a resume to show the whole truth.. But Jesus, are we at a point where we don't expect to only show the truth?

Michael says playing with dates isn't dishonest. Bullshit. It's incredibly easy to "play" with the dates (e.g., lie) to hide the fact you're fired from every job you've ever had within the year and it takes you six months to find new employment.

Half this thread is people saying "Don't lie, because that makes you a liar, and nobody likes liars." and the other half is people saying "Just because I lie on my resume doesn't mean I'm a liar because this one time a company did something bad to me so that makes this unrelated occurrence totally okay."

Like you said: disgusting.

Re: Facebook's Gen Y Nightmare

#136

Post by pc86 » Mon, Sep 24, 2012, 6:23 PM UTC

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #50

Here's an easy one somebody could write up over the weekend: You apply for a job with a resume. The resume lists the dates you worked various jobs. So you just go out and comb the social networks to find all the posting times for this person and cross-reference it with their work hours. You've just made a predictor of how much time they'll be spending on your dime trolling the net. Now perhaps that's only 1 in 20 sec…

You also get into some issues with time off, vacations, etc. But I have no doubt companies (and the naive prospective employees) that have this type of access do that.

Re: Facebook's Gen Y Nightmare

#137

Post by waterlesscloud » Mon, Sep 24, 2012, 9:35 PM UTC

gnaritas wrote: post #130

genwin wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So which is it?: are you lucky enough to live in a state without sales tax, or do you pay your state's use taxes promptly when you buy stuff online?

That's not even close to the same thing, whether an online retailer should charge taxes or not is a matter between the state and the retailer to settle and is currently up in the air; though I hear amazon will soon charge but will also introduce same day delivery. That's nothing like lying about my history to an employer to get a job or promotion.

The retailer does no owe sales tax to the state, you do as a citizen of that state.

You, not the retailer, are legally obligated to report your purchases and pay the tax.

Re: Facebook's Gen Y Nightmare

#138

Post by genwin » Mon, Sep 24, 2012, 10:04 PM UTC

gnaritas wrote: post #130

genwin wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So which is it?: are you lucky enough to live in a state without sales tax, or do you pay your state's use taxes promptly when you buy stuff online?

That's not even close to the same thing, whether an online retailer should charge taxes or not is a matter between the state and the retailer to settle and is currently up in the air; though I hear amazon will soon charge but will also introduce same day delivery. That's nothing like lying about my history to an employer to get a job or promotion.

waterlesscloud is correct. It's a crime (tax evasion) for you to not pay your state's use taxes. Much more serious than lying to an employer; at least that's legal.

Re: Facebook's Gen Y Nightmare

#139

Post by gnaritas » Mon, Sep 24, 2012, 10:35 PM UTC

waterlesscloud wrote: post #137

gnaritas wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not even close to the same thing, whether an online retailer should charge taxes or not is a matter between the state and the retailer to settle and is currently up in the air; though I hear amazon will soon charge but will also introduce same day delivery. That's nothing like lying about my history to an employer to get a job or promotion.

The retailer does no owe sales tax to the state, you do as a citizen of that state. You, not the retailer, are legally obligated to report your purchases and pay the tax.

I never said the retailer owed taxes to the state. And as I said, taxing online sales is a currently hot issue and relying on voluntary compliance of consumers isn't going to cut it and every state knows that. This is completely irrelevant anyway, I reject any assertion that failing to pay taxes due (often out of ignorance) on internet purchases is in any way comparable to deceiving your employer and co-workers by lying (on purpose) about your resume to gain social status.

Re: Facebook's Gen Y Nightmare

#140

Post by michaelochurch » Mon, Sep 24, 2012, 11:00 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #135

cmccabe wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a disgusting response. "Someone else may or may not have done something worse at some point, so anything I do is ok." By the way, you may want to Google for Scott Thompson. He was a CEO of Yahoo, until they found out that he had lied on his resume. It isn't just "the proles" who get into trouble because of dishonesty. P.S. I don't consider it wrong to leave jobs off your resume if you feel like they are not impo…

I don't know anyone, even in HR, who expects a resume to show the whole truth.. But Jesus, are we at a point where we don't expect to only show the truth? Michael says playing with dates isn't dishonest. Bullshit. It's incredibly easy to "play" with the dates (e.g., lie ) to hide the fact you're fired from every job you've ever had within the year and it takes you six months to find new employment. Half this thread i…

Michael says playing with dates isn't dishonest. Bullshit. It's incredibly easy to "play" with the dates (e.g., lie) to hide the fact you're fired from every job you've ever had within the year and it takes you six months to find new employment.

Let's say that I fire someone, and I absolutely can't afford a severance package, leaving him out in the cold. Let's also say that the following are the options:

A. He changes dates to make himself more employable. (I'd probably offer a term in severance to give him the ability to do this, but let's assume I forget.) This is annoying, but doesn't really hurt me.

B. He spreads a lie about me that ruins my reputation. Perhaps he makes up a bogus sexual harassment claim and pays other disgruntled ex-employees off to corroborate it. Now I have to deal with a frivolous lawsuit he made up to clear his name, and it may hurt my reputation.

C. He can't find another job, because of the damage that the spell of unemployment does to his reputation, and after his money runs out, he butchers his entire family in a murder-suicide. My name is in the papers as that of the guy who fired him a year before it happened.

Out of these three choices, I'm going to say that A is the one I dislike the least. I'm probably not his biggest fan given that I had to fire him, but I'd prefer the arrangement that minimizes harm to him and to me.

In the real world, people do nasty shit when the stakes are high or when they're desperate. I wish it weren't that way, but it is. Maybe you want to live in a world where people with damaged careers live with the damage. I want to live in a world where people who need to escape their past (even though I hope I'm never in that category) can do so without resorting to more drastic actions.

Half this thread is people saying "Don't lie, because that makes you a liar, and nobody likes liars." and the other half is people saying "Just because I lie on my resume doesn't mean I'm a liar because this one time a company did something bad to me so that makes this unrelated occurrence totally okay."

I don't lie on my resume. Ever. I've never needed to. But I have more pity than disgust toward people who have to reinvent their histories because they have no other options.