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Facebook's Gen Y Nightmare

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Re: Facebook's Gen Y Nightmare

#91

Post by fruchtose »

While data mining on this scale is only barely science fiction, I don't see it progressing it this far for a number of reasons:

1. Users. Once Facebook users learn that their public data will be used for these purposes, people will en masse make their profiles private. Not everyone will understand what is going on, but everyone with enough Facebook friends will figure out from their friends to make their profiles private.

2. The public. Public outrage is a powerful thing. Data-sharing on such an unprecedented scale would almost certainly trigger public outcry and/or boycott. People have an alternative to Facebook: G+. A boycott would not be such a big tragedy for people. Plus, you don't want your website to be known as the one that can get people fired.

3. Government. This is related to number 2. If enough people get mad, then Congress may pass laws to stop Narrative Data and similar companies from producing personal data mining products.

Re: Facebook's Gen Y Nightmare

#92

Post by scarmig »

DanBC wrote: post #86
vacri wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you prove that the HR person thought you shouldn't get a return call because you were a little too old?

Individually, you can't. That's why collectively resisting the temptation to play to discriminatory tactics is so important. But, if you're researching, it's trivial. You send out a bunch of CVs / resumés that are identical apart from age. You then compare the return rates.

Out of curiousity, have people done this study about tech workplaces, particularly in the Bay Area?

If it's incredibly trivial to prove, I'd be surprised if it hadn't. (I'd be equally surprised if it had been attempted and shown no age discrimination--it'd push against my priors, but I'd try to keep an open mind.)

In reality, I suspect it's much harder than you suggest to prove, and even harder to litigate on.

Re: Facebook's Gen Y Nightmare

#93

Post by michaelochurch »

scarmig wrote: post #92
DanBC wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Individually, you can't. That's why collectively resisting the temptation to play to discriminatory tactics is so important. But, if you're researching, it's trivial. You send out a bunch of CVs / resumés that are identical apart from age. You then compare the return rates.

Out of curiousity, have people done this study about tech workplaces, particularly in the Bay Area? If it's incredibly trivial to prove, I'd be surprised if it hadn't. (I'd be equally surprised if it had been attempted and shown no age discrimination--it'd push against my priors, but I'd try to keep an open mind.) In reality, I suspect it's much harder than you suggest to prove, and even harder to litigate on.

The biggest problem with age discrimination is that it's subtle-- not overt. It exists in the form of harsh age-grading for accomplishments, because the delta between the average and the maximum possible at a given age grows, so the average person's deficit compared to where they "should be" becomes more of an issue. No one would pass on a 55-year-old CS luminary who's still writing papers, but 40-year-olds with the careers expected of 35-year-olds are screwed. After a certain age, being merely above average isn't acceptable anymore.

Most companies would rather bet on a young 6 than an old 8, because they overestimate their ability to mold the 6 into a 9 (which is actually very hard to do).

That's why establishing age discrimination is impossible. You'd have to generate identically indicative/"qualified" resumes at very different ages, which is probably impossible to do.

Re: Facebook's Gen Y Nightmare

#94

Post by Steuard »

michaelochurch wrote: post #26
tptacek wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a little hard for me to feel sympathetic with the need to conceal dishonesty on resumes. Meanwhile, we talk to lots of great people who don't have LinkedIn profiles; it is by no means a standard requirement. If you can't be honest to LinkedIn, just keep your profile off it. No matter who gets elected in November, by 2015 guaranteed-issue health insurance is going to be the norm, so this health insurance story a…

It is a little hard for me to feel sympathetic with the need to conceal dishonesty on resumes. It depends what the "dishonesty" is. Claiming a skill you don't have is unethical. Bumping your college degree by 5 years in order to seem 5 years younger is, in my opinion, ethically OK. There's a difference between quackery (faking a skill you don't have, and potentially hurting people) and social status inflation. One is…

It's a lie. It's a deliberate, baldfaced lie. I don't want "you" working for me. Who knows what other lies you think are okay because they're "just how people work"?

You compare this lie on your resume to being "accidentally inconsistent". Tell me: if HR asked you about the discrepancy (maybe the company requires a background check?), would you admit to your deliberate deception, or would you lie again and say, "Oops, must've typed that wrong"? (And then you wonder why HR mistrusts people who make accidental mistakes.)

Maybe you're right and this is a social status thing, but man. It hadn't struck me that the ability to live with a shred of integrity was that much a matter of privilege.

Re: Facebook's Gen Y Nightmare

#96

Post by [deleted] »

tptacek wrote: post #16
michaelochurch wrote: post #14

LinkedIn scares me more, because I think most 22-year-olds don't really foresee that they might have the need to change their career histories. The idea that you might have to bump your college degree by 5 years is unimaginable at age 22. I don't foresee myself ever needing an explicit lie, but it's hard to keep a story consistent over 20 years. The online paper trail is a bit scary. I wouldn't even have a LinkedIn p…

It is a little hard for me to feel sympathetic with the need to conceal dishonesty on resumes. Meanwhile, we talk to lots of great people who don't have LinkedIn profiles; it is by no means a standard requirement. If you can't be honest to LinkedIn, just keep your profile off it. No matter who gets elected in November, by 2015 guaranteed-issue health insurance is going to be the norm, so this health insurance story a…

[deleted]

Re: Facebook's Gen Y Nightmare

#97

Post by enraged_camel »

A lot of people are focusing on whether the specific scenario in the article could possibly come to pass, but they are missing the big picture: the Internet is unprecedented in that it remembers everything. This is why it is a horrible idea to use online services that force you to drop your anonymity: if you put your personal information on them, then someone will mine it and use it against you at some point in your life.

Re: Facebook's Gen Y Nightmare

#98

Post by michaelochurch »

Steuard wrote: post #94
michaelochurch wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a little hard for me to feel sympathetic with the need to conceal dishonesty on resumes. It depends what the "dishonesty" is. Claiming a skill you don't have is unethical. Bumping your college degree by 5 years in order to seem 5 years younger is, in my opinion, ethically OK. There's a difference between quackery (faking a skill you don't have, and potentially hurting people) and social status inflation. One is…

It's a lie. It's a deliberate, baldfaced lie. I don't want "you" working for me. Who knows what other lies you think are okay because they're "just how people work"? You compare this lie on your resume to being "accidentally inconsistent". Tell me: if HR asked you about the discrepancy (maybe the company requires a background check?), would you admit to your deliberate deception, or would you lie again and say, "Oops…

I don't think you've read the rest of my posts.

I have far too much of an online presence to ever get away with lying about my age (I'm 29) or anything like that, so you don't have to worry about me.

I've also had enough experience to know what the real crimes are and what the worst players actually look like. I've been screwed over by people who are actually deeply unethical (like a member of a prominent family who robbed me and threatened to bribe judges if I sought legal action) so if someone benefits by fiddling with dates and making a better story, I don't really give a shit. If you care about these things, then go and do something about the real crimes, which are usually perpetrated by powerful people who never get caught and involve far worse deceptions than a few dates on a CV.

Also, the pile-on that happens to people who get caught in these minor lies isn't a reaction to a lack of integrity; it's indignation at the thought of a low-status individual getting "above his station" (the horror!) I'm lucky enough to be one of those high-status people with a good career and pedigree, but I'm not foolish enough to believe that it comes from innate superiority rather than mostly luck.

Re: Facebook's Gen Y Nightmare

#99

Post by michelleclsun »

hudibras wrote: post #36
majormajor wrote: post #15

If these companies learn everything about everyone, what happens if what they discover is that most people have their own little problems and health issues and craziness? The truly awesome people with absolutely nothing wrong with them? Good luck finding them! As far as the migraine bit goes: there are already some sorts of medical discrimination that are illegal to use for hiring in the US, though I don't know exact…

The part about not hiring a young woman because there's a high chance that she is or will be pregnant is already illegal in the U.S.

The sad thing about it is that, employers most usually deny to explain the reason why an application is denied. It can easily be attributed to 'cultural fit' or 'lack of experience'.

Re: Facebook's Gen Y Nightmare

#100

Post by michelleclsun »

I believe this is not only a Gen Y nightmare, but nightmare for all social media users that are oversharing or lack the time / energy to properly clean up their social media presence.

It's hard to have a public presence to say, >1000 friends on facebook. As a user since 2005 back in college, I witness my peers and my Facebook usage evolve from 'a social network with personal sharing' to a 'bare wall with a few instagram picture uploads / article sharing, and essentially a contact list'. It's sad, but inevitable - how personal can sharing be, when the friends list is over 1000 and some of whom are no longer actively in your life? Of course no one is to blame but the user (myself) that added too many friends. However, this issue is quite common in many users that approach their 3-4th year of using facebook; less personal sharing, more 'contact collecting'.

I wonder if what everyone thinks of a service that helps clean up the social media, or even more broadly, online presence of individuals. www.123people.co.uk tells you webpages/ social media accounts/ pictures/ articles about a person just by typing in first, last name and a region.

With facebook recently opening up email addresses for companies to target their ads (http://techcrunch.com/2012/09/20/facebook-crm-ads/). One can only imagine where our information is shared and sold to corporations.

It is a shuddering thought.

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