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Facebook's Gen Y Nightmare

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Re: Facebook's Gen Y Nightmare

#81

Post by tptacek »

aswanson wrote: post #80
Bud wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ethical people call those "mistakes" and don't paper over them. Well, sort of. They call them "mistakes" after they get caught, or, rarer, after they have admitted what they did. Before such time, however, said ethical people don't call their unethical foibles anything, because they aren't talking about them. I have to agree with the GP's specific point, here. It is a bit sad that the ability to bump your age a bit a…

Right. So sick of the ethical high-horse most employers/corporations seem to be on re: honesty, etc. when they show no such respect towards employees. They have no problem smiling in your face and calling you family, knowing that they'll downsize/ax your ass in a millisecond, should the numbers dictate. Classic socio/psychopathic Jedi mind tricks...

It is a little freaky that you think honesty is a "high horse".

Re: Facebook's Gen Y Nightmare

#82

Post by AJ007 »

majormajor wrote: post #15

If these companies learn everything about everyone, what happens if what they discover is that most people have their own little problems and health issues and craziness? The truly awesome people with absolutely nothing wrong with them? Good luck finding them! As far as the migraine bit goes: there are already some sorts of medical discrimination that are illegal to use for hiring in the US, though I don't know exact…

Some companies prohibit even viewing a candidates Facebook profile picture in order to stay within the realm of US legal compliance. I'm not expect in this area but I think a lot of what is described in the article is illegal, as it relates to hiring here.

Now, I'd be ready to discuss Gen Y's real nightmare of watching their cool high school friends get old and fat..

Re: Facebook's Gen Y Nightmare

#83

Post by aswanson »

tptacek wrote: post #81
aswanson wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. So sick of the ethical high-horse most employers/corporations seem to be on re: honesty, etc. when they show no such respect towards employees. They have no problem smiling in your face and calling you family, knowing that they'll downsize/ax your ass in a millisecond, should the numbers dictate. Classic socio/psychopathic Jedi mind tricks...

It is a little freaky that you think honesty is a "high horse".

No one tells the truth in any and all circumstances. To assume as much is...dishonest.

EDIT: I define a high horse as a position taken that is false that I, as an employee, am expected to reciprocate. If I am a resource (expendable), then act and state as much. Don't verbally act as though I am more than that to extract loyalty and dedication. That's lower than dishonesty, IMO.

Re: Facebook's Gen Y Nightmare

#84

Post by yuhong »

drumdance wrote: post #51
dredmorbius wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is among the reasons I've revised my LinkedIn profile to a de minimas version. Name. Field. No job history. No resume. Contacts, which I keep trimmed in public views (lord knows how they're available behind my back, of course). I also maintain no FB profile. My prediction: the "social web" will end very badly. Mostly as the present cohort hits its 30s and early 40s, with concomitant life issues (marriage, child…

I actually think it will go the other way. Things that are suspect now will be treated as youthful indiscretion. Think about it: the current President admitted in his own book that he had done cocaine. That was unthinkable just 10 years ago. As Gen Y moves higher up the career ladder, they'll be the ones making the hiring decisions about the Facebook oversharers.

IMO, that is the right solution that I hope will happen.

Re: Facebook's Gen Y Nightmare

#85

Post by vacri »

DanBC wrote: post #58
michaelochurch wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a little hard for me to feel sympathetic with the need to conceal dishonesty on resumes. It depends what the "dishonesty" is. Claiming a skill you don't have is unethical. Bumping your college degree by 5 years in order to seem 5 years younger is, in my opinion, ethically OK. There's a difference between quackery (faking a skill you don't have, and potentially hurting people) and social status inflation. One is…

> Bumping your college degree by 5 years in order to seem 5 years younger is, in my opinion, ethically OK No. Not only is it lying, which is obviously not acceptable, but it is pandering to discriminatory attitudes. It is not legal to discriminate based on age when employing people in the UK, and thus it should be pointless to lie about age.

How do you prove that the HR person thought you shouldn't get a return call because you were a little too old?

Re: Facebook's Gen Y Nightmare

#86

Post by DanBC »

vacri wrote: post #85
DanBC wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bumping your college degree by 5 years in order to seem 5 years younger is, in my opinion, ethically OK No. Not only is it lying, which is obviously not acceptable, but it is pandering to discriminatory attitudes. It is not legal to discriminate based on age when employing people in the UK, and thus it should be pointless to lie about age.

How do you prove that the HR person thought you shouldn't get a return call because you were a little too old?

Individually, you can't. That's why collectively resisting the temptation to play to discriminatory tactics is so important.

But, if you're researching, it's trivial. You send out a bunch of CVs / resumés that are identical apart from age. You then compare the return rates.

Re: Facebook's Gen Y Nightmare

#87

Post by dredmorbius »

gaius wrote: post #60
dredmorbius wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is among the reasons I've revised my LinkedIn profile to a de minimas version. Name. Field. No job history. No resume. Contacts, which I keep trimmed in public views (lord knows how they're available behind my back, of course). I also maintain no FB profile. My prediction: the "social web" will end very badly. Mostly as the present cohort hits its 30s and early 40s, with concomitant life issues (marriage, child…

Revising doesn't help - the only safe way is not to give them it in the first place. These companies live or die on their databases. What you delete, they merely flag as deleted and don't show, but you can bet they keep it.

Well ... there's also not re-feeding the beast.

There's also the significance of current data.

I've made some various inquiries of a few databases, and the profile on me is both sparse and inaccurate. Whether or not this is/will cause me problems, I'm not entirely sure, but I mostly prefer it as it is.

Re: Facebook's Gen Y Nightmare

#88

Post by michaelochurch »

aswanson wrote: post #80
Bud wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ethical people call those "mistakes" and don't paper over them. Well, sort of. They call them "mistakes" after they get caught, or, rarer, after they have admitted what they did. Before such time, however, said ethical people don't call their unethical foibles anything, because they aren't talking about them. I have to agree with the GP's specific point, here. It is a bit sad that the ability to bump your age a bit a…

Right. So sick of the ethical high-horse most employers/corporations seem to be on re: honesty, etc. when they show no such respect towards employees. They have no problem smiling in your face and calling you family, knowing that they'll downsize/ax your ass in a millisecond, should the numbers dictate. Classic socio/psychopathic Jedi mind tricks...

So sick of the ethical high-horse most employers/corporations seem to be on re: honesty, etc. when they show no such respect towards employees. They have no problem smiling in your face and calling you family, knowing that they'll downsize/ax your ass in a millisecond, should the numbers dictate.

At the start of 2012, I was working for a startup that hired 3 people into the same leadership position without knowledge of the others. (I was one of them; that was fun.) It routinely did that: hiring multiple people for the same leadership position at the same time. The CTO eventually left because he was actually a decent guy and he couldn't stand the ethical compromises the other executives expected him to make.

Promising 3 people the same leadership position at the same time... now, that is unethical.

Once you've been screwed over by a couple actually unethical people, you realize that the petty, victimless status inflations people use don't deserve any real indignation. Let's talk about the real crimes, which are usually perpetrated by powerful, established people hiding behind corporate veils. There are bigger fish to fry out there, and most of them (a) will never get caught, and (b) are enormously successful.

We proles tend to have what Filipinos call the crab mentality: we all keep each other down and stay stuck in the bucket. We heap a lot more ridicule on people who harmlessly inflate their social status with a title upgrade than on the much worse criminals who often hide behind positions of power and diminished accountability.

I'm not a liar. (See other posts about exploder vs. exploiter. I'm at least 2 sigma of exploder, to my detriment.) I have, however, concluded that most people will lie to get ahead, and that there are different forms of it and some are much more decent than others. I don't give a shit about people who move dates around slightly-- not in a world where real crimes occur on a daily basis.

With regard to the "high horse": because there are so many unethical people in business and most of them never get caught, the appearance of being ethical is paramount. Don't get me wrong: it's very bad for you if you get caught even in the minimal lies. I'm not saying it's advisable or wise for a person to play with dates-- if you get caught, you're fucked-- but I'm just saying it doesn't make me that angry if people do it and get away with it.

Re: Facebook's Gen Y Nightmare

#89

Post by ph0rque »

tptacek wrote: post #16
michaelochurch wrote: post #14

LinkedIn scares me more, because I think most 22-year-olds don't really foresee that they might have the need to change their career histories. The idea that you might have to bump your college degree by 5 years is unimaginable at age 22. I don't foresee myself ever needing an explicit lie, but it's hard to keep a story consistent over 20 years. The online paper trail is a bit scary. I wouldn't even have a LinkedIn p…

It is a little hard for me to feel sympathetic with the need to conceal dishonesty on resumes. Meanwhile, we talk to lots of great people who don't have LinkedIn profiles; it is by no means a standard requirement. If you can't be honest to LinkedIn, just keep your profile off it. No matter who gets elected in November, by 2015 guaranteed-issue health insurance is going to be the norm, so this health insurance story a…

No matter who gets elected in November, by 2015 guaranteed-issue health insurance is going to be the norm...

I realize it's a bit off-topic, but what factors lead you to believe this will happen by the third year of the next president's term?

Re: Facebook's Gen Y Nightmare

#90

Post by michaelochurch »

tptacek wrote: post #81
aswanson wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. So sick of the ethical high-horse most employers/corporations seem to be on re: honesty, etc. when they show no such respect towards employees. They have no problem smiling in your face and calling you family, knowing that they'll downsize/ax your ass in a millisecond, should the numbers dictate. Classic socio/psychopathic Jedi mind tricks...

It is a little freaky that you think honesty is a "high horse".

The issue is that people get fired and sometimes even humiliated over minor deceptions (like "playing" with dates) while companies routinely protect managers who do much worse things that actually hurt people-- things like promising good reviews and writing bad ones, abusing process for retaliatory or deceptive purposes, and hiring multiple people for the same leadership role at the same time. "Rules are for the proles" is what seems to be the corporate attitude in at least 75% of companies.

It's a power relationship. They can lie and get away with it because they have the gold (cf. "golden rule" as "those with the gold make the rules") but you are screwed if you get caught in even a small one. It's important to know how the game works and what risks you're taking, and my strategy is not to lie. But I don't believe that people who pursue other strategies and cheat harmlessly at an unfair game are awful or unethical people.

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