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How America got hooked on ultraprocessed foods

nytimes.com

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Re: How America got hooked on ultraprocessed foods

#161

Post by tptacek »

supportengineer wrote: post #159
joshyeager wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Coleman bacon doesn't list ingredients. But the Applegate bacon lists celery powder because that is a source of nitrates. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celery_powder

The Coleman one is the one I usually get these days, I used to get the Applegate.

I don't know much about either brand but there are good reasons to buy fancy bacon instead of Smithfield and Hormel, just because of the quality and ethics of the livestock inputs. But nitrites aren't one of those reasons.

Re: How America got hooked on ultraprocessed foods

#162

Post by parineum »

0xbadcafebee wrote: post #19
nradov wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every grocery store where I've shopped has yogurt with no added sugar. It's right there on the shelf, just look at the label. Antibiotic resistance is a concern but the FDA has made progress in that area. https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/safety-health/antimicr... The EU bans routine antibiotic use for promoting animal growth but antibiotics are still widely used for other purposes. https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/n…

The US still used 6.1 million kilograms of medically important antibiotics for animal farming in 2023. It was only down 2% from the year before. https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/antimicrobial-stewardship/fda-rep...

That sounds like a lot but what's the comparison to another country adjusted per animal (or weight of meat produced?)?

Re: How America got hooked on ultraprocessed foods

#163

Post by fsckboy »

tptacek wrote: post #93

This all has very big "uncured bacon" energy to me (if you didn't already know: there's no such thing; vendors of uncured bacon performatively drive the same chemical nitrite reaction using vegetable extracts). For example: yogurt becomes a UPF simply by dint of adding carrageenan, which is on the order of calling dashi a UPF because of the kombu. It's not that there isn't a very legitimate issue underneath all this:…

>which is on the order of calling dashi a UPF because of the kombu

when you use a comparison like this, you choose an example that people will understand so they can then, by analogy, extend that understanding to the point you are trying to make...

like the kombu in the dashi, you say? dash-it-all, that's a combunation I hadn't considered!

Re: How America got hooked on ultraprocessed foods

#164

Post by tptacek »

fsckboy wrote: post #163
tptacek wrote: post #93

This all has very big "uncured bacon" energy to me (if you didn't already know: there's no such thing; vendors of uncured bacon performatively drive the same chemical nitrite reaction using vegetable extracts). For example: yogurt becomes a UPF simply by dint of adding carrageenan, which is on the order of calling dashi a UPF because of the kombu. It's not that there isn't a very legitimate issue underneath all this:…

> which is on the order of calling dashi a UPF because of the kombu when you use a comparison like this, you choose an example that people will understand so they can then, by analogy, extend that understanding to the point you are trying to make... like the kombu in the dashi, you say? dash-it-all, that's a combunation I hadn't considered!

If you don't do a lot of cooking, just think "this is a definition that suggests virtually all traditional Japanese cooking is UPF".

Re: How America got hooked on ultraprocessed foods

#165

Post by bigstrat2003 »

littlestymaar wrote: post #139
tptacek wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're talking about American-style bacon, and it tastes like bacon, there's no such thing. They're just exploiting labeling rules by selecting very specific nitrite sources. Nitrites are what give bacon (and ham) its flavor. This is before we get to the whole premise of avoiding nitrates. Would you eat a beet? That's a serving of industrial bacon's worth of nitrates right there. Later (Actually, super bad example…

> Nitrites are what give bacon (and ham) its flavor. Are you sure about that? Because it's the first time ever I stumbled upon this argument. The explanation I heard is that there are legit bacterial food safety concerns (salmonella and listeria, IIRC) that justify using nitrites even if they are by themself harmful, the benefit/risk ratio is simply favorable to nitrites.

It's both. Curing is a preservative technique and it gives bacon and ham the flavor people enjoy. Like a lot of food preservation techniques (jam, etc) curing was most likely developed for preservation first, and then people came to enjoy the flavor it gave.

Re: How America got hooked on ultraprocessed foods

#166

Post by stronglikedan »

supportengineer wrote: post #138
tptacek wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're talking about American-style bacon, and it tastes like bacon, there's no such thing. They're just exploiting labeling rules by selecting very specific nitrite sources. Nitrites are what give bacon (and ham) its flavor. This is before we get to the whole premise of avoiding nitrates. Would you eat a beet? That's a serving of industrial bacon's worth of nitrates right there. Later (Actually, super bad example…

I fucking hate beets. For bacon, what do you think of these? Applegate: https://www.raleys.com/product/10400628/applegate-naturals-h... Coleman: https://www.raleys.com/product/103101180/coleman-natural-bac...

Counterpoint: I fucking love beets. (and bacon. but not together. yuck)

Re: How America got hooked on ultraprocessed foods

#167

Post by benrutter »

tptacek wrote: post #93

This all has very big "uncured bacon" energy to me (if you didn't already know: there's no such thing; vendors of uncured bacon performatively drive the same chemical nitrite reaction using vegetable extracts). For example: yogurt becomes a UPF simply by dint of adding carrageenan, which is on the order of calling dashi a UPF because of the kombu. It's not that there isn't a very legitimate issue underneath all this:…

> It's just that "UPF" isn't the right metric for isolating those foods

I've heard this criticism a fair bit, and I sort of agree. The only thing is, what is the right metric? And if we don't have one, and know these foods are causing harm, should we just use UPF as a term anyway?

Re: How America got hooked on ultraprocessed foods

#168

Post by bigstrat2003 »

duped wrote: post #147
talkingtab wrote: post #133

People in the US are so trained by the food industry, that they do not know what good food is. Yogurt for example. Here is an experiment you can do at home if you want to disbelieve my statement. Step #1 Make good yogurt and eat it. 1. Go buy a quart of milk, full fat. 2. Buy some yogurt culture. Bulgarian preferred. 3. Follow the directions. You need to keep the temp at around 110F, warm water bath, heating pad, hot…

I mean there are things you can reasonably do better than the grocery store but something things are unrealistic. Like "just go to a gourmet cheese store" is not something you can do in most of the country. I live in one of the largest metro areas with quite a few Michelin star and recommended eateries, lovely food culture, and we love our dairy. I think there are two dedicated cheese mongers you can walk into in the…

I think dedicated cheese mongers are a lot more accessible than you are envisioning based on your experience. I live in Denver, which is a large city but by no means one of the largest in the country. We have no Michelin star restaurants that I know of, we don't have a dairy industry or anything like that. We still have multiple dedicated cheese stores in the area that one can get to. It's not that niche to enjoy good cheese.

Re: How America got hooked on ultraprocessed foods

#169

Post by kritr »

BetaDeltaAlpha wrote: post #74
vector_spaces wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope that you recognize that your casual-outsider evaluation of the assortments of these stores is deeply flawed and not based on actual data. If you think about it even just a little bit, you'll recognize that it wouldn't make sense for a supermarket in one of the highest median income cities in the country to have assortment parity with a chain targeting cost conscious shoppers. The devil here is in the long-tail…

Safeway is the cost conscious option in Mountain View, compare it with the other options (Whole Foods, Nijiya). The comparison between Publix and Safeway is apt.

Ironically in SF it seems inversed. Whole Foods is second cheapest to Trader Joe’s, and Safeway is the most expensive.

Re: How America got hooked on ultraprocessed foods

#170

Post by GeekyBear »

supportengineer wrote: post #138
tptacek wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're talking about American-style bacon, and it tastes like bacon, there's no such thing. They're just exploiting labeling rules by selecting very specific nitrite sources. Nitrites are what give bacon (and ham) its flavor. This is before we get to the whole premise of avoiding nitrates. Would you eat a beet? That's a serving of industrial bacon's worth of nitrates right there. Later (Actually, super bad example…

I fucking hate beets. For bacon, what do you think of these? Applegate: https://www.raleys.com/product/10400628/applegate-naturals-h... Coleman: https://www.raleys.com/product/103101180/coleman-natural-bac...

I just learned to pickle canned beets to have in salads, and they work really well as a salad add in.
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