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Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

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Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#151

Post by thunky »

0xEF wrote: post #56
basisword wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> You really don't want to end up with dementia and related illnesses, it totally sours everyone's view of you. I don't think this is fair. I know several people who died with Alzheimer's and although their final years were very difficult for them nobody has a bad opinion of them. It's certainly a strain on the family but intimating that if you have dementia you better kill yourself or your legacy will be ruined is…

I think the suggestion needs more thought, but I don't necessarily disagree with the idea of making my exit before the dementia really sets in. I've directly cared for two family members who suffered from it (collective 5 years of my life, which I'd like to think gives me a pretty good view of what the disease can actually do to people) and I decided for myself that I'd rather be quietly killed than put my loved ones…

Sorry if I'm missing something but how do you plan to exit on your own terms if it's not allowed, and your only legal tools are DNRs and living wills?

It seems like DIY methods could be risky to your family if you're already impacted by the disease, and your own competency is called into question.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#152

Post by Freak_NL »

firesteelrain wrote: post #138
Freak_NL wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't seem pleasant for the person themself either. Constant frustration, gaps in your memory growing ever larger, disorientation, loss — periodically augmented by brief flickers of recollection of what you used to be — and yet no one can legally end your misery, because you can likely no longer unequivocally consent to euthanasia or assisted suicide, even if you explicitly signed a declaration that you did not…

It’s still absurd despite what you say that we are implying that we should euthanize another human because they have become difficult to manage due to illness. Where do we draw the line?

I am not implying that at all. People should be free to choose when to die, and people should be free to set conditions for their future wherein they no longer wish to live even if they could not express that at point.

That's a personal choice. Anyone not interested in that won't have to do anything and can just wait for the end.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#153

Post by protonbob »

hypeatei wrote: post #91
michaelt wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many western countries make dying slowly with Alzheimer’s very expensive, by the standards of normal families. Between doctors, nurses and lawyers you can burn through a million bucks in five years easily. And most families don’t have a million bucks cash to spare. On the other hand, if they die after six months, instead of after 5 years? The family doesn’t lose the farm.

> Between doctors, nurses and lawyers you can burn through a million bucks in five years easily That would indicate there is a financial incentive in keeping them alive , no? The "incentive" from the family's perspective, if they're that cold-blooded, doesn't make sense because they could just... not take care of that person.

Some countries have nationalized healthcare

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#154

Post by raffael_de »

basisword wrote: post #2

An interesting choice. It's fascinating that even for very ill or injured people the will to survive is so strong - I wonder if at a certain age this instinct diminishes making a choice like his easier?

Maybe at a certain age other instincts strengthen making a choice like this easier? We all have to come to terms. And if you are older than 70 then it is just a fact that every day can be your last without any accident or noteworthy medical complication. And the guy has been probably thinking about this fast and slow for at least two decades then.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#155

Post by paulryanrogers »

dkga wrote: post #141
AQuantized wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You really don't want to end up with dementia and related illnesses, it totally sours everyone's view of you. This seems like such an absurd conclusion to this, as though the opinions of other people of you are what matter when you functionally lose your personhood and then die. Maybe a better focus would be that there often isn't a good way for a community to manage a person who suddenly becomes irrational because…

This. Life is such a precious random occurrence that failing to protect it in the face [dementia|physical disabilities|etc] is the real tragedy.

What does protecting life look like when one is literally losing everything about themselves that they value?

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#156

Post by rkomorn »

cwillu wrote: post #149
firesteelrain wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s still absurd despite what you say that we are implying that we should euthanize another human because they have become difficult to manage due to illness. Where do we draw the line?

You can quite easily draw a line that society does not get to force someone to live a tormented existence in spite of their prior declaration that they do not want to be tormented. “It shouldn't be that way” is not an excuse to torture people through your moralizing indifference to the fact that it is that way.

I've wondered about this for my hypothetical future self.

Currently? I'd say that I wouldn't want to live with dementia, but what if my "demented self" (kinda hate the phrasing, sorry) in the future wants to live, or doesn't remember they don't want to live?

Do I have a say over the life of someone who doesn't remember they were me?

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#157

Post by raffael_de »

arresin wrote: post #113
bapak wrote: post #85

More of this, please. What is the point of living your last 10 years of life bed ridden? This is how I will go.

You will have an eternity to be dead. I want every second. Even if it’s painful. I am still alive.

Are you sure you understand how painful pain can be? Especially when you experience it daily and there is no hope for recovery?

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#158

Post by coldtea »

AQuantized wrote: post #92
lordnacho wrote: post #3

I had an old teacher who died almost a year ago. Great guy, very sociable, knew everyone in the little town he lived in. Kept in touch with a lot of students. Good neighbour, friendly guy who'd talk to everyone. He got Alzheimers. He started forgetting stuff, and it frustrated him. He got caught driving dangerously, and cursed the doctor who took away his license. He argued with me about the state of some chicken he…

> You really don't want to end up with dementia and related illnesses, it totally sours everyone's view of you. This seems like such an absurd conclusion to this, as though the opinions of other people of you are what matter when you functionally lose your personhood and then die. Maybe a better focus would be that there often isn't a good way for a community to manage a person who suddenly becomes irrational because…

>This seems like such an absurd conclusion to this, as though the opinions of other people of you are what matter when you functionally lose your personhood and then die.

They do matter.

Being concerned with how your behavior affects your family or your community, and the opinion they have of you, above your own self-interest, is how good parents, good friends, good citizens, and so on, are made.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#159

Post by sillyfluke »

dkga wrote: post #141
AQuantized wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You really don't want to end up with dementia and related illnesses, it totally sours everyone's view of you. This seems like such an absurd conclusion to this, as though the opinions of other people of you are what matter when you functionally lose your personhood and then die. Maybe a better focus would be that there often isn't a good way for a community to manage a person who suddenly becomes irrational because…

This. Life is such a precious random occurrence that failing to protect it in the face [dementia|physical disabilities|etc] is the real tragedy.

As I mentioned in a another comment, framing it as "how one is remembered" is leading to pointless tangents in this thread.

The important point is this: are you causing emotional, psychological, physical distress in the real world to those you care about when you have this disease? Yes or no. That's what I care about. Whether they are able to remember me well despite that, or poorly because of that should be completely secondary.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#160

Post by ignoramous »

RickJWagner wrote: post #117
ignoramous wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jason Zweig, Kahneman's friend, wrote about this and many other thoughts Kahneman would have gone through in making the decision. As Barbara Tversky, who is an emerita professor of psychology at Stanford University, wrote in an online essay shortly after [Kahneman's] death, their last days in Paris had been magical... One afternoon, according to her online essay, she asked what [Kahneman] would like to do. "I want to…

I have to wonder if they could have had one more magical day. Or maybe two. Maybe in a different city, or with different friends. If he did “learn something new”, could he have incrementally improved upon it, using his brilliant mind? Could he have made one more wise observation? It seems he likely left something on the table.

Kahneman's family & friends who knew beforehand apparently did object.

You should read the piece by Jason Zweig, if you haven't. The decision was deeply personal and was most certainly not an endorsement of euthanasia.

  ... Kahneman's final email said: "Not surprisingly, some of those who love me would have preferred for me to wait until it is obvious that my life is not worth extending. But I made my decision precisely because I wanted to avoid that state, so it had to appear premature. I am grateful to the few with whom I shared early, who all reluctantly came round to support me."

  Kahneman's friend Annie Duke, a decision theorist and former professional poker player, published a book in 2022 titled "Quit: The Power of Knowing When to Walk Away." In it, she wrote, "Quitting on time will usually feel like quitting too early."

  She is frustrated by his decision. "There's a big difference between it feeling early and it actually being too early," she says. "You're not terminal, you're fine. Why aren't you taking the outside view? Why aren't you listening to people who will give you good objective advice? Why are you doing this?"

  Paul Slovic, a psychologist at the University of Oregon who befriended Kahneman more than 50 years ago, says, "Danny was the type of person who would think long and hard about things, so I figured he must have thought about it very slowly and deliberatively. Of course, those of us who spend our lives studying decisions, we think a lot about the reasons for those decisions. But often the reasons aren't reasons. They're feelings."
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