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Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

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Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#91

Post by hypeatei »

michaelt wrote: post #90
hypeatei wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is a direct financial incentive for families to push people into this What financial incentives are there in killing someone?

Many western countries make dying slowly with Alzheimer’s very expensive, by the standards of normal families. Between doctors, nurses and lawyers you can burn through a million bucks in five years easily. And most families don’t have a million bucks cash to spare. On the other hand, if they die after six months, instead of after 5 years? The family doesn’t lose the farm.

> Between doctors, nurses and lawyers you can burn through a million bucks in five years easily

That would indicate there is a financial incentive in keeping them alive, no?

The "incentive" from the family's perspective, if they're that cold-blooded, doesn't make sense because they could just... not take care of that person.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#92

Post by AQuantized »

lordnacho wrote: post #3

I had an old teacher who died almost a year ago. Great guy, very sociable, knew everyone in the little town he lived in. Kept in touch with a lot of students. Good neighbour, friendly guy who'd talk to everyone. He got Alzheimers. He started forgetting stuff, and it frustrated him. He got caught driving dangerously, and cursed the doctor who took away his license. He argued with me about the state of some chicken he…

> You really don't want to end up with dementia and related illnesses, it totally sours everyone's view of you.

This seems like such an absurd conclusion to this, as though the opinions of other people of you are what matter when you functionally lose your personhood and then die.

Maybe a better focus would be that there often isn't a good way for a community to manage a person who suddenly becomes irrational because of an illness.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#93

Post by ants_everywhere »

hypeatei wrote: post #64
sarchertech wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s the problem. If there’s a financial incentive people will find way to push it. That’s my biggest concern about assisted suicide for an otherwise healthy person who just wants to avoid the inevitable decline (as in this case). There is a direct financial incentive for families to push people into this. The only way I can see to remove that would be to require that your estate can’t go to anyone who potentially…

> There is a direct financial incentive for families to push people into this What financial incentives are there in killing someone?

We don't talk about it a lot as a society, but some people just like killing people.

The ordinary outlet for them is the military. Sometimes they become serial killers.

A euthanasia industry would attract these people similarly to how police and security work attracts authoritarians and how clergy jobs attract pedophiles.

That's not to say that most people in the industry would enjoy killing people, but it would be a problem. And death is final; it's impossible to fix mistakes. This is the same reason many people are opposed to the death penalty.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#94

Post by Aerbil313 »

xpe wrote: post #70
Aerbil313 wrote: post #63

Now this is hilariously non-ironic. The guy who spent his life researching how to live rationally chooses suicide at age 90, upon seeing “increasing metal lapses”, presumably in order to not ever live irrationally.

> Now this is ironic. Ironic is the opposite of what you mean, don't you think? By your explanation, Kahneman acted according to his life's work. > The guy who spent his life researching how to live rationally chooses suicide at age 90, upon seeing “increasing metal lapses”, presumably in order to not ever live irrationally. That was possibly part of his motivation. But also the pain, suffering (goes broader than phy…

Thanks, I had a mental lapse - fixed it.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#95

Post by sarchertech »

1dom wrote: post #75
sarchertech wrote: post #44

So he was very old without any significant problems, but he wanted to avoid the inevitable problems? If you’ve already made it to 90 with no major issues, you’re expected to make it to 95 and you could make easily live to 100. My wife’s grandad is 90 and he still lives alone, drives, plays golf nearly everyday, and regularly sees his 12 grandchildren and many great grandchildren. He even made the 9 hour trip to come…

> If you’ve already made it to 90 with no major issues, you’re expected to make it to 95 and you could make easily live to 100. My wife’s grandad is 90 and he still lives alone, drives, plays golf nearly everyday, and regularly sees his 12 grandchildren and many great grandchildren. Counter-anecdote, my partners Granddad is 93. Age 90, we said the same as you. Now he's an old, rude, obnoxious liability - he's still g…

>I feel the desire to stay alive long enough to be a liability for yourself and those around you is a decision motivated by ego and fear, rather than compassion or logic.

Everyone becomes a liability at some point. By that logic we should just go full Logan’s run and kill people as soon as they stop being productive.

There nothing wrong with saying that you aren’t going to take extreme measures to preserve your life past a certain age.

But I don’t want this attitude of “you should kill yourself so you don’t burden your family” to become the norm either.

What if your partner’s grandad heard you calling him a rude obnoxious liability and felt pressured into killing himself?

>I've never known anyone naturally age and die without losing their ability to be civil in some way towards the end.

But many people die suddenly with no serious mental decline at all. That can happen at 95 or 100 the same as it happens earlier.

If you rule out everyone who didn’t die of some nebulous cause as the result of a slow decline you are selecting for people who mentally decline.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#96

Post by cogman10 »

Simulacra wrote: post #52

Ever since I watched my father waste away in agony and die in a veterans home, it has become my greatest fear in life to suffer until the bitter end. I choose euthanasia because I don't want to put my family through that, and the last thing I want to do, if you'll pardon me, is to waste away in my own urine and feces in what will likely be a sub optimal care situation.

Same with my grandmother that had dementia.

You can get into a state of living death where the brain is mush and who you were is completely destroyed. That's hell for the family.

I saw my grandmother forget her daughter (my mother) it was heartbreaking. Seeing my mom realize her mom forgot everything about their life together was just painful.

It was just a sad existence to observe as well. Grandma lived for quiet a while with dementia and spent years trying to return to her childhood home. We'd constantly have to trick her into accepting help from us "strangers". Re-convincing her to come inside that these "strangers" wouldn't mind having her for a bit. Watching her read over the same page of a book for hours on end.

That's not an existence I want for myself or my family.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#97

Post by hypeatei »

sarchertech wrote: post #84
hypeatei wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So... something you're entitled to regardless of how they die? I don't see why, in this hypothetical, a person would spend energy encouraging assisted suicide when they'll get inheritance eventually anyway. Am I missing something?

1. You get the money now as opposed to potentially many years from now. 2. You likely get much more money if they die now without spending it on cost of living, and healthcare. People do all kinds of awful things in order to get control of an elderly family member’s money—up to and including outright murder. Pressuring a suggestible family member into assisted suicide is a comparatively easy and low risk method.

> People do all kinds of awful things in order to ...

Okay, sure, but how much of the population is this awful and does it actually matter since they can't consent to someone else's suicide anyway?

I don't think this is as much of a widespread issue as its made out to be, to be honest.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#98

Post by sarchertech »

ta1243 wrote: post #89
sarchertech wrote: post #44

So he was very old without any significant problems, but he wanted to avoid the inevitable problems? If you’ve already made it to 90 with no major issues, you’re expected to make it to 95 and you could make easily live to 100. My wife’s grandad is 90 and he still lives alone, drives, plays golf nearly everyday, and regularly sees his 12 grandchildren and many great grandchildren. He even made the 9 hour trip to come…

My nan made it to 92 without any mental issues, but then deteriorated significantly over the course of 18 months, forgetting she'd ever been married, had kids, etc, just reverted to believing she was a teenager who wanted to go home to her parents (in a house which was destroyed in ww2) She couldn't look after herself was was forced into care by the courts. Since going into a home she's physically never been fitter,…

That’s terrible, but you never know when or if the decline is going to happen, so if you pick an arbitrary cutoff you’ll have killed people who had plenty of good years left.

Many people die suddenly with no decline at all.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#99

Post by sillyfluke »

AQuantized wrote: post #92
lordnacho wrote: post #3

I had an old teacher who died almost a year ago. Great guy, very sociable, knew everyone in the little town he lived in. Kept in touch with a lot of students. Good neighbour, friendly guy who'd talk to everyone. He got Alzheimers. He started forgetting stuff, and it frustrated him. He got caught driving dangerously, and cursed the doctor who took away his license. He argued with me about the state of some chicken he…

> You really don't want to end up with dementia and related illnesses, it totally sours everyone's view of you. This seems like such an absurd conclusion to this, as though the opinions of other people of you are what matter when you functionally lose your personhood and then die. Maybe a better focus would be that there often isn't a good way for a community to manage a person who suddenly becomes irrational because…

The parent described someone who went above and beyond the norm of other members in his community in his constant positive interaction with his neighbors, collegues, and former students. It is highly likely this kind of person would give a considerable shit if he knew he would become a nightmare for the same community.

There may be others reading in the thread who also can relate to the personality of the teacher and may care about their affect on others when they are "not themselves".

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#100

Post by masklinn »

mosura wrote: post #45
anilgulecha wrote: post #20

I'm part of the Jain community in Bangalore, and the version of this in society exists, called Sallekhna [1], a tradition that's developed over millennia, and this is venerated and celebrated. The philosophical underpinning is giving up of materialness. The practicality of the 5 instances that I witnessed over the past year - typical terminal individuals choose this. They pass away surrounded by loved ones (they typi…

How long does this actually take?

Hard fast (e.g. hunger strikes) usually take about 2 months to kill a healthy adult.

On the one hand according to the wiki this is more progressive removing food by degrees which would make the process a lot longer.

On the other hand being a mostly ascetic practice I'd assume it's done by people who have a lot less reserves (body fat and muscle) which would shorten the process significantly (the 207kg Angus Barbieri famously fasted continuously for 382 days[0] breaking his fast at 82kg, although he supplemented his liquids — water, tea, and coffee — with vitamins, electrolytes, and yeast extract, the latter for essential amino acids).

[0]: technically he was put on a recovery diet of salting then sugaring his water for 10 days, so ate no solid food for 392 days, breaking his fast with a boiled egg and a slice of buttered bread

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