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Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

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Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#241

Post by andersmurphy »

esperent wrote: post #237
JSR_FDED wrote: post #223

Datastar is run by some principled (and opinionated) guys who are immensely generous with their time and supportive to newcomers. What’s getting lost in the whole kerfufflw over the Pro version is that this is NOT a monetization strategy. There is no intent to hook you - in fact they go out of their way to tell your you don’t need it. And the company is a registered non-profit. Based on their own extensive experience…

data-animate - Animates element attributes over time. data-on-resize - Runs an expression on element resize. data-scroll-into-view - Scrolls an element into view. If these are footguns then they can't be designed very well. I also don't think you can say that they'd only appeal to a small group. I don't have any problem with them charging for whatever they want to. But let's not make up excuses.

1. You should be using CSS for animations

2. You should be using data-on to listen to the window level resize event (which doesn't require a pro plugin).

3. Scroll element into view can be replicated with data-on-load="el.scrollIntoView()"

The main benefit of pro is supporting the project.

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#242

Post by andersmurphy »

znort_ wrote: post #229
array_key_first wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do it to reduce complexity. The problem with JS heavy frontend is you now have TWO applications. The real application, on the backend, which makes all the decisions, and the frontend application. You have TWO states which are being mutated independently that you now have to sync.

reducing complexity is important but is hardly the fundamental reason to choose between server side or client side rendering or state management. that just depends on the nature of the problem and the context it has to be solved in. sometimes it doesn't matter, then you have a choice. you guys are furiously arguing (and not really listening) about this or that hammer being good enough to treat every problem as a nail…

Why? What's stopping you putting some state on the client with datastar. Just because it's discouraged doesn't mean you can't.

It has a whole client side signal system.

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#244

Post by andersmurphy »

VoidWhisperer wrote: post #193
withinboredom wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience from using react apps on 2g/3g… I would much prefer the html. Usually, you get the content in 1-2 seconds with html, where you could end up with a react apps that never loads at all. Why does it never load? Because enterprising engineers usually invent their own timeouts that make no sense when you are dealing with bytes-per-second. There’s already a one minute timeout on the socket, and it knows if…

The issue is that if you have to make more requests overall, there is a non-negligible rtt for each of those requests, which on slow connections can add up very fast

Try my demo [1] on 3G slow. It works fine.

Turns out brotli compression does wonders.

[1] https://checkboxes.andersmurphy.com

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#245

Post by hu3 »

webcoon wrote: post #243

Docs mention absolutely nothing about offline use, service workers, or PWAs. How am I supposed to build a modern web app with that? Rely on always having internet?

> Rely on always having internet?

Yes? Very few cases need offline capabilities. Why complicate things unnecessarily?

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#246

Post by andersmurphy »

bradly wrote: post #9

It isn't mentioned on the homepage, but Datastar does charge for the following features: data-animate - Animates element attributes over time. data-custom-validity - Adds custom validity to an element. data-on-raf - Runs an expression on every animation frame. data-on-resize - Runs an expression on element resize. data-persist - Persists signals in local storage. data-query-string - Syncs query string params with sig…

Those prices are for one off lifetime purchase too! That's crazy. I don't know why they bother. They'll never make back the money for the time they put in developing it.

Such a bad move. I told them they should charge more and actually have useful features in pro.

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#247

Post by nchmy »

jopicornell wrote: post #234
nchmy wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the simplicity of doing such a fork, and that no one has done it yet, perhaps this is a non-issue?

Same as my other comment, it seems like you are involved in the project. Stop responding like this is facebook or reddit. Here we offer our expertise with all good intentions. They haven't said it is a simple task, you are assuming that they said that. If you can't take constructive criticism or even respond to opinions you disagree, then it is better to not respond at all, because it is bad PR. I understand that mai…

I'm a user of datastar, nothing more. And I'm defending the developers against all of the baseless slander here.

And now Im forced to defend myself against your baseless slander. If you cared to read, you'd see that I said it was a simple task to update the pre-pro versions of the tiny plugins to be compatible with the current api, because it would be. And they replied on that basis.

The rationale has been shared many times - here and elsewhere. And the pro features are not "hidden" - they're right there in the header. And it's not for any nefarious reason - precisely the opposite, in fact. They don't want to appear to be flogging something. Similarly, they don't advertise any of the pro features as being free, anywhere.

But, I brought this all up with the devs earlier and suggested they add a small link or banner or something to the pro license and they said they would. But not because it's a good or necessary idea, but instead just so all the trolls won't have even the wobbliest leg to stand on in the future on this topic.

Please take some constructive criticism - you have no idea what you're talking about here, in any regard. It is childish. Please inform yourself in the future, especially when you want to try to correct someone.

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#248

Post by andersmurphy »

hasanhaja wrote: post #212
skeeter2020 wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, then this approach will needlessly discourage adoption AND consume way more resources than it brings in. Under this structure the team needs to deliver the highest level of quality to the smallest paying audience without community support. Further, enterprise is very hesitant to pay for this as a product but are way more receptive to paying for support. Everyone would be much better served without a tiered free/p…

If an enterprise won't want to pay for the product, what makes you think they're more likely pay for support? If you're implying they'll only pay when they've seen the value of the product, then the non-pro part of the framework is incredibly feature-rich and can easily do that.

Yeah support model for a lit of projects like this doesn't work. Even companies like the one behind NATS struggle. It's almost contingent on you building a bad product that needs support.

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#249

Post by nchmy »

contrast wrote: post #240
nchmy wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the only valid and reasonable criticism I've seen here so far, kudos to you. 299 is, indeed, inaccessible for many people. But, the devs live in places where things cost more, so its also a tiny price compared to the relative value that they provide. I do think that some sort of geo-relative pricing structure would be worth looking into, but how does one even implement something like that? Is there something…

I pay for a lot of software eg I used Screen Studio a couple of times, liked it, dropped a couple hundred bucks for it. Good work from a solo dev. Datastar have basic functionality in the pro license. Basic UX capabilities like animation and copy to clipboard. The devs aren’t “very clear” that most people should never need the license. That’s just PR. They’ve picked a bunch of features that even a teenage hobbyist mi…

They literally don't care if people want to buy it. They tell people not to. So there's nothing to take on the chin.

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#250

Post by nchmy »

replwoacause wrote: post #236
nchmy wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

THeres not much on the site yet, as he's still baking it. https://data-star.dev/reference/datastar_pro#stellar-css But theres rocket and stellar channels in their discord where there's sneak peeks. VERY cool stuff https://discord.gg/bnRNgZjgPh

Too bad it will only be available as a Pro feature. I’m not against supporting hard work by any means but framing it as an alternative to free options set me up for a bit of disappointment. But I agree with everything else you said that this seems very impressive.

Sorry, I had no intention to frame it as being free. Fair point though.

Do check it all out though - it's a breath of fresh air.

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