Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

data-star.dev

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

181–190 of 298 posts

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#181

Post by nchmy »

xdfgh1112 wrote: post #177
nchmy wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Finally a good-faith reply! I concede that my original comment here was somewhat hostile, but only really the first line. And it wasn't even all that hostile - especially when the rest of the comment was really just informative and positive about datastar. And, moreover, is standing up to poor behaviour - even if done in a somewhat hostile/confrontational way - really such a bad thing? It seems quite clear to me that…

I'm sorry people didn't immediately take to this financing model as well as you did. The average person is not as invested as you and most people are going to immediately switch off if they hear part of the functionality costs money and this isn't mentioned anywhere on the front page. Doesn't matter how "unnecessary" these features are, it's a bad look. Plenty of other open source projects make money without attracti…

People pay for things all the time, why not (almost surely unnecessary) code? Why do you all feel entitled to free access to thousands of hours of very highly skilled devs' efforts (most of which they actually are giving away for free)?

Moreover, it is quite common for there to be pro versions of libraries these days - tailwind, all sorts of component libraries, etc..

> Plenty of other open source projects make money without attracting this kind of negative feedback

We dont seem to be living in the same reality. In mine, maintaining open source projects is a nearly-completely thankless, profit-less endeavour. It is a rare exception that someone can earn a living from it. And datastar's devs have zero expectation that they'll do so, even with this model - hence it is registered as a 501c3, and the funds will cover things like travelling to conferences to talk about it.

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#182

Post by nchmy »

sudodevnull wrote: post #136
skyfantom wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't find anything about this on the main page.

Author of Datastar here. Most people don't need pro and it seems like putting it on the front page is actually marketing it instead of people finding it as the need the features. Not only should most people not use the features we actively push against it. The only thing that's really super valuable is the inspector which is a Dev tool

As someone who actually happily bought Pro, I completely agree with this. Inspector is great, and worth the (nominal) cost of Pro. I might use a couple other of the pro functions. I'm very much looking forward to Stellar CSS and Rocket Web component framework getting released - they'll DEFINITELY make pro worthwhile, and given that they are completely new, there should be no qualms about it being purely pro.

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#183

Post by hasanhaja »

skeeter2020 wrote: post #161
hasanhaja wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which feature are you referring to?

not the OP, but a lot of the referenced functionality looks like I might use it. The problem is I'm not going to bother trying this and investing any effort with even the looming possibility I'll need to pay to keep going. I don't think too many people approach this space with a purchase evaluation mindset like say, "I'm going to test out this grid to see if we should buy it". In that case pay-for advanced functional…

Fair enough! That's up to you

If the core of the framework fits what you need, you could write those additional plugins yourself, rather than relying on the official "pro" ones. My understanding so far is the plugin architecture is intentionally designed for this usecase, so you aren't beholden to the official maintainers to add/tweak features for your specific usecase.

This makes the investment in the tool a lot safer, because you can always swap out pieces that don't fit your usecase, rather than start from scratch with a new framework.

In an enterprise setting, I don't believe the cost alone will be the factor that drives the decision. It'd be weighing up the value of the framework (e.g., UI framework/programming language agnostic stack, simpler architectures, delivery speed, performance, cost of using the framework on users) against the license cost.

> Getting enterprise adoption of a front end framework is almost impossible outside of React, let alone paying for a niche one, and the "contact us" approach is a non-starter.

Two questions on this:

1. Why do you think it's impossible to get org buy-in? 2. Why do those same orgs pick frameworks like Next.js, whose full benefits can only be realized with sophisticated and paid infrastructure?

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#184

Post by nchmy »

mexicocitinluez wrote: post #131
nchmy wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a weird comment. Why bring this up unless you're just trying to make them look bad in a dishonest way? It is clearly documented on the site in multiple places. Moreover, they actively dissuade people from even buying the pro license because they are quite emphatic that most people/sites do not need any of these features. If you do need them, then it's a small price to pay for the functionality, as well as to mak…

> It is clearly documented on the site in multiple places. Hold up, so then why is pasting THEIR documentation into a comment weird? lol. This is an absolutely insane response to someone simply informing the commentors that there is a price involved in the pro package.

because the implication in this and so many other comments is that they're dishonestly hiding something. There was no other commentary other than a large and prominent comment saying "Watch the fuck out everyone! There be $ hidden in there!"

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#185

Post by porridgeraisin »

sudodevnull wrote: post #129
porridgeraisin wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> plaster a big sign Yes!! That's table stakes. It's the bare minimum needed to not be considered malice.

Why? What is at stake?

Basic decency of being upfront about your business model, and in general being upfront and not being deceitful in life.

Anyways, constructively, they should add a usual pricing page with a nav for that at the top of the landing page.

It makes it clear that something is priced, right on the landing page.

In the pricing page the cards better make the costs super clear.

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#186

Post by IshKebab »

ivape wrote: post #160
IshKebab wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I'm objectively correct about it preventing bugs. This is one of the few things that has been fairly conclusively shown by studies. As for productivity, maybe it doesn't matter on tiny projects or short-lived one-man projects, but for anything else I don't see how you can argue it. You basically can't refactor reliably without static types, you can't navigate the codebase quickly without static types, and it mak…

You basically can't refactor reliably without static types, you can't navigate the codebase quickly without static types, and it makes it more difficult to understand other people's code without static types. What a great interview test. I’d absolutely not hire someone that can’t do that. It also doesn’t make any sense. That’s like saying entire codebases without types can’t be worked on. Huh? Those are basic things…

I said reliably. Without static types in large codebases you are likely to miss things. E.g. you rename a variable but don't catch everywhere you should have updated it.

Don't say "but tests".

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#187

Post by sudodevnull »

skeeter2020 wrote: post #163
matheusmoreira wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what do you want them to do? > plaster a big sign on the landing page stating that this framework ALSO contains pro features that you have to pay for? Yes. I for one don't enjoy being on the receiving end of these marketing dark patterns and manipulation tactics.

I've commented above that this seems like a bad approach, but it sure feels like a lack of awareness vs. an intentional dark pattern. The internet makes it so easy to assume the worst but I think this is a case where we should start with the most charitable interpretation.

Dark pattern? Pro plugins are built in the same way as is accessible to any user. What's the real issue?

Re: Datastar: Lightweight hypermedia framework for building interactive web apps

#189

Post by sudodevnull »

troupo wrote: post #166
sudodevnull wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are limited to what is possible in the data dash-* spec. If you have better syntax that's going to work everywhere in every browser please let us know!

You literally have a custom Javascript-like DSL already https://data-star.dev/guide/datastar_expressions This wilful insanity is completely incomprehensible to me (HTMX and lit are also fully infected with it): "Oh no, we are just HTML, we can't do anything" while literally doing tons of things outside of HTML.

What's your alternative that stay HTML spec compliant? Instead of whining show code
Post reply on HN