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I'm turning 41, but I don't feel like celebrating

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Re: I'm turning 41, but I don't feel like celebrating

#61

Post by LAC-Tech »

graeme wrote: post #16

It should be noted that Durov does not criticize Russia, his country of citizenship and the center of much of his userbase. The Russian internet is far more controlled than the Western internet, with penalties up to and including arrest and death for expressing the wrong views. Russia also is actively invading Europe and sponsoring vast network of troll accounts which poison the discourse on the internet in Western c…

I don't think Russians are the group English speakers get the most propaganda from.

Re: I'm turning 41, but I don't feel like celebrating

#62

Post by rockskon »

oblio wrote: post #60
rockskon wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like a recipe for the powerful dehumanizing people using polite words and those being dehumanized being handcuffed in the range of legal responses they can make in return.

At the end of the day, powerful people will still have the upper hand anywhere in the world, you're bringing up a red herring. It's not like by going for an ad hominem you automatically win back the argument.

No, but denying people the ability to express part of the human condition under reasonable circumstances is cruel.

Re: I'm turning 41, but I don't feel like celebrating

#63

Post by SilverElfin »

yatsyk wrote: post #27

I share Durov’s disappointment about where the internet is heading. But I think it’s hypocritical to talk about freedom of speech issues in Western Europe while ignoring similar or worse restrictions in China, Russia, or Dubai, where he lives. It’s similar to Musk’s approach — when Twitter is shut down in Brazil, it’s a freedom of speech violation, but having a Tesla factory in China suddenly makes that problem disap…

I view it differently. China and Russia are lost causes and are fundamentally authoritarian. Western democracies or countries that claim to constitutionally protect free speech (like Brazil) can be held to a higher standard. Not doing so leads to them ultimately becoming authoritarian.

Re: I'm turning 41, but I don't feel like celebrating

#64

Post by siva7 »

SilverElfin wrote: post #58
siva7 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pavel can't be trusted in any way. Russia is at war with Europe, russians are living in a bloody dictatorship and there is zero freedom of speech in Russia. Yet his tweet is only about western democracies in Europe - exactly what you would expect from a Putin puppet.

He also has French citizenship. Perhaps he cares about defending those values where they are still viable. That makes him more trustworthy not less.

Oh nice, so i'm sure he is defending our freedom by living in France as a french citizen like the rest of us where freedom of speech actually exists fur russian guys like him? But i forgot, he chose instead just another dictatorship in the middle east. I guess that makes him even more trustworthy.

Re: I'm turning 41, but I don't feel like celebrating

#65

Post by andrewflnr »

oblio wrote: post #60
rockskon wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like a recipe for the powerful dehumanizing people using polite words and those being dehumanized being handcuffed in the range of legal responses they can make in return.

At the end of the day, powerful people will still have the upper hand anywhere in the world, you're bringing up a red herring. It's not like by going for an ad hominem you automatically win back the argument.

> powerful people will still have the upper hand anywhere

So just give up on trying to keep the powerful in check with laws?

No? Then what are you saying? Why not consider how this notion of banning "insult" is guaranteed to be abused?

Re: I'm turning 41, but I don't feel like celebrating

#66

Post by yatsyk »

SilverElfin wrote: post #63
yatsyk wrote: post #27

I share Durov’s disappointment about where the internet is heading. But I think it’s hypocritical to talk about freedom of speech issues in Western Europe while ignoring similar or worse restrictions in China, Russia, or Dubai, where he lives. It’s similar to Musk’s approach — when Twitter is shut down in Brazil, it’s a freedom of speech violation, but having a Tesla factory in China suddenly makes that problem disap…

I view it differently. China and Russia are lost causes and are fundamentally authoritarian. Western democracies or countries that claim to constitutionally protect free speech (like Brazil) can be held to a higher standard. Not doing so leads to them ultimately becoming authoritarian.

I’m more focused on the situation from Musk’s point of view, not yours. Maybe your view is less controversial. But I don’t think Musk sees China and Russia as failed states. He’s said many positive things about both countries.

Re: I'm turning 41, but I don't feel like celebrating

#67

Post by realusername »

SilverElfin wrote: post #58
siva7 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pavel can't be trusted in any way. Russia is at war with Europe, russians are living in a bloody dictatorship and there is zero freedom of speech in Russia. Yet his tweet is only about western democracies in Europe - exactly what you would expect from a Putin puppet.

He also has French citizenship. Perhaps he cares about defending those values where they are still viable. That makes him more trustworthy not less.

The fact that Putin reversed his stance and Telegram isn't banned in Russia anymore is all you need to know on his values.

Re: I'm turning 41, but I don't feel like celebrating

#68

Post by jagermo »

nairboon wrote: post #55
jagermo wrote: post #32

"Germany is persecuting anyone who dares to criticize officials on the Internet Bull. Shit. If you break the existing laws, by insulting or slandering someone, you might have to face the consequences. But I guess it is easy to point the finger at Germany and conjure the specter of the fascists if you live in Dubai, come from Russia, and created 2 of the biggest troll-mills ever. Would not want to rattle the cage too…

> anyone who dares to criticize officials > by insulting or slandering someone That's a bit of a straw man isn't it? The German government makes it very easy to point fingers at them: The German minister of economics and "vice president" (vice chancellor) had so much free time and capacity to sue more than 800 citizens! https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/1493232/umfra... The vice president of a G7 country…

no, its not. He exercised his right to not be insulted and slandered - same as if those people would have walked up to him and talked to him directly.

Especially if you see the hate that was sprewed at him at every single post, news, update or whatever, i completley understand. This has nothing to do with criticizing someone - Habeck actually has a good track record of sitting down with other people and talking with them, but stuff like death threats.

More background here at politico https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-robert-habeck-files-... this were massive attacks leading up to the european election not people unhappy with "Ze Greens".

Also, on the "old man calling him an idiot”:

So, not Habeck going after him, but simply saying that its ok to pursue the inquiry.

Yeah, that "old guy" seems like a real treat and not at all like an asshole right-wing dumbnut.

https://www.dw.com/en/germany-greens-habeck-presses-charges-...

The old guy was also not convicted, something the right-wingers found super cool.

Re: I'm turning 41, but I don't feel like celebrating

#69

Post by esseph »

oblio wrote: post #60
rockskon wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like a recipe for the powerful dehumanizing people using polite words and those being dehumanized being handcuffed in the range of legal responses they can make in return.

At the end of the day, powerful people will still have the upper hand anywhere in the world, you're bringing up a red herring. It's not like by going for an ad hominem you automatically win back the argument.

The CEO of that healthcare company probably thought the same thing.
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