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I'm turning 41, but I don't feel like celebrating

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Re: I'm turning 41, but I don't feel like celebrating

#11

Post by phs318u »

SilverElfin wrote: post #4
nialse wrote: post #2

Common misunderstandings are that there was no control over the internet and that anonymity was for protecting freedom of expression of the individuals. The difference is that what once was covert in the West is now out in the open. Anonymity enabled the troll culture, famously exploited by any and all bad faith actors in their favor. Control in terms of surveillance on metadata level is just a manner of having enoug…

> Anonymity enabled the troll culture Anonymity enabled honesty and free expression. FTFY.

I'm old enough to remember the internet before the WWW and yes, anonymity enabled the troll culture (among other things). Honesty and free expression didn't require anonymity because people weren't being constantly monitored or having their every pronouncement judged (by the mostly anonymous). Yes, there were lots of flame-wars, but folks by and large had the gumption to hold their name to their positions.

* I may be wearing rose-tinted glasses. It's been a very long time since I'd spend 4 hours a day reading and replying on various Usenet groups.

Re: I'm turning 41, but I don't feel like celebrating

#12

Post by tpm »

SilverElfin wrote: post #3

This is Pavel Durov, the founder of Telegram. And he’s totally correct. The Internet was much better before the 2000s and the social media era. And when the people who remember it aren’t around, those remaining won’t have any idea that they’re missing something. He’s also totally correct in calling out the obvious lunge towards authoritarianism from European democracies - this must be stopped immediately: > Once-free…

Yet he is also one of the riders of apocalypse. Techbros who only applied rules that suited them and abused everything else. It's one thing if we had some mythical true freedom fighters, or guys from Signal, against The State, but if it's people like him, Zuckerberg etc. then it gets much harder to defend anything they do. It is important to understand that 'the lunge towards authoritarianism' is directly caused by this.

> Germany is persecuting anyone who dares to criticize officials on the Internet.

This is not correct as far as I know. If Germany is persecuting someone for something written on the internet, that something is much worse than criticism. Words should still have meaning.

Re: I'm turning 41, but I don't feel like celebrating

#13

Post by mlyle »

phs318u wrote: post #11
SilverElfin wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anonymity enabled the troll culture Anonymity enabled honesty and free expression. FTFY.

I'm old enough to remember the internet before the WWW and yes, anonymity enabled the troll culture (among other things). Honesty and free expression didn't require anonymity because people weren't being constantly monitored or having their every pronouncement judged (by the mostly anonymous). Yes, there were lots of flame-wars, but folks by and large had the gumption to hold their name to their positions. * I may be…

You don't need anonymity so much until certain things show up: other anonymous people, commercial bulk data aggregation, bullying subcultures, blending of real life with the online world, political intolerance.

Unfortunately, I don't see a path back to the kind of internet where we don't need anonymity so much.

Re: I'm turning 41, but I don't feel like celebrating

#14

Post by ljf »

jrflowers wrote: post #7
nialse wrote: post #2

Common misunderstandings are that there was no control over the internet and that anonymity was for protecting freedom of expression of the individuals. The difference is that what once was covert in the West is now out in the open. Anonymity enabled the troll culture, famously exploited by any and all bad faith actors in their favor. Control in terms of surveillance on metadata level is just a manner of having enoug…

> Anonymity enabled the troll culture You will be blown away by stuff people post at eachother on facebook, the site where you use your real name

Consider;

a. Not all people using Facebook are using their real name,

and

b. Not all Facebook accounts are real people

Re: I'm turning 41, but I don't feel like celebrating

#15

Post by doener »

Pavel Durov cannot be trusted. He has built his life on lies, created an opaque, highly complex network of companies, and developed a relationship with the Russian regime that is full of inconsistencies, among other things. For starters, he claimed for years that Telegram's headquarters were in Berlin, Germany, when they never were.

Re: I'm turning 41, but I don't feel like celebrating

#16

Post by graeme »

It should be noted that Durov does not criticize Russia, his country of citizenship and the center of much of his userbase.

The Russian internet is far more controlled than the Western internet, with penalties up to and including arrest and death for expressing the wrong views. Russia also is actively invading Europe and sponsoring vast network of troll accounts which poison the discourse on the internet in Western countries.

This does not make his argument incorrect but it is worth keeping the context in mind before getting too cynical about western systems. That cynicism is one the explicit goals of Russian propaganda.

Re: I'm turning 41, but I don't feel like celebrating

#17

Post by Aeolun »

graeme wrote: post #16

It should be noted that Durov does not criticize Russia, his country of citizenship and the center of much of his userbase. The Russian internet is far more controlled than the Western internet, with penalties up to and including arrest and death for expressing the wrong views. Russia also is actively invading Europe and sponsoring vast network of troll accounts which poison the discourse on the internet in Western c…

> That cynicism is one the explicit goals of Russian propaganda.

I don’t need Russia to tell me to be cynical of the western political situation.

Re: I'm turning 41, but I don't feel like celebrating

#19

Post by NedF »

SilverElfin wrote: post #3

This is Pavel Durov, the founder of Telegram. And he’s totally correct. The Internet was much better before the 2000s and the social media era. And when the people who remember it aren’t around, those remaining won’t have any idea that they’re missing something. He’s also totally correct in calling out the obvious lunge towards authoritarianism from European democracies - this must be stopped immediately: > Once-free…

> The Internet was much better before the 2000s

An embarrassing fiction, it was junk. More people are on VPNs now than were on the internet pre-2000

It's true there were ideas and principals in a wild west the younger generation will never know was the default. You could go out and have a battle with Injun's or see a lynching but it was 99.9% dust and hard work herding cows.

The internet now is a megacity, everything is amazing, there are roving gang wars to little hobbyists and anything else you can imagine.

> He’s also totally correct in calling out the obvious lunge towards authoritarianism

Yes Pavel and this is 100% correct.

China banned VPNs effectively, this will come to the West next. If the US falls there is no where to VPN to.

Re: I'm turning 41, but I don't feel like celebrating

#20

Post by ahofmann »

Aeolun wrote: post #17
graeme wrote: post #16

It should be noted that Durov does not criticize Russia, his country of citizenship and the center of much of his userbase. The Russian internet is far more controlled than the Western internet, with penalties up to and including arrest and death for expressing the wrong views. Russia also is actively invading Europe and sponsoring vast network of troll accounts which poison the discourse on the internet in Western c…

> That cynicism is one the explicit goals of Russian propaganda. I don’t need Russia to tell me to be cynical of the western political situation.

Well, do you? Where does the cynicism against the political situation come from? I think europes reality is much better, than the poisoned discourse makes us believe.
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