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I'm turning 41, but I don't feel like celebrating

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Re: I'm turning 41, but I don't feel like celebrating

#51

Post by ljf »

jagermo wrote: post #32

"Germany is persecuting anyone who dares to criticize officials on the Internet Bull. Shit. If you break the existing laws, by insulting or slandering someone, you might have to face the consequences. But I guess it is easy to point the finger at Germany and conjure the specter of the fascists if you live in Dubai, come from Russia, and created 2 of the biggest troll-mills ever. Would not want to rattle the cage too…

Same for his suggestion the 1000s of people are in prison for tweeting - there are people who are jailed for malicious communications but that includes terrorism and a few others things that are far more serious than simply presenting an opinion on a website.

Re: I'm turning 41, but I don't feel like celebrating

#52

Post by siva7 »

bfg_9k wrote: post #31
doener wrote: post #15

Pavel Durov cannot be trusted. He has built his life on lies, created an opaque, highly complex network of companies, and developed a relationship with the Russian regime that is full of inconsistencies, among other things. For starters, he claimed for years that Telegram's headquarters were in Berlin, Germany, when they never were.

He, himself? I agree. He's a snake in the grass. His message is 100% correct though.

No, it isn't. There are factual errors in his tweet like others pointed out.

Re: I'm turning 41, but I don't feel like celebrating

#55

Post by nairboon »

jagermo wrote: post #32

"Germany is persecuting anyone who dares to criticize officials on the Internet Bull. Shit. If you break the existing laws, by insulting or slandering someone, you might have to face the consequences. But I guess it is easy to point the finger at Germany and conjure the specter of the fascists if you live in Dubai, come from Russia, and created 2 of the biggest troll-mills ever. Would not want to rattle the cage too…

> anyone who dares to criticize officials

> by insulting or slandering someone

That's a bit of a straw man isn't it?

The German government makes it very easy to point fingers at them: The German minister of economics and "vice president" (vice chancellor) had so much free time and capacity to sue more than 800 citizens! https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/1493232/umfra...

The vice president of a G7 country suing old men because they called him a numbnut on the internet is ridiculous.

Re: I'm turning 41, but I don't feel like celebrating

#56

Post by jrflowers »

nialse wrote: post #29
jrflowers wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anonymity enabled the troll culture You will be blown away by stuff people post at eachother on facebook, the site where you use your real name

Real names? I have an old novelty account (not used) which still sends me updates via email from the family of the same name as the ready made meals company I was making fun of. At the same time you are completely right! Troll culture has enabled an era of unhinged communication. Many people have lost the little decency they had. I’ll be the first to admit I’m not immune to it.

Yeah my point isn’t really about troll accounts. They exist but that doesn’t have anything to do with the amount of crazy stuff people post under their real names on facebook. Like I could say “imgur, the place where you post dogs” and that would be accurate even if somebody saw pictures of a cat on it

Re: I'm turning 41, but I don't feel like celebrating

#58

Post by SilverElfin »

siva7 wrote: post #50
graeme wrote: post #16

It should be noted that Durov does not criticize Russia, his country of citizenship and the center of much of his userbase. The Russian internet is far more controlled than the Western internet, with penalties up to and including arrest and death for expressing the wrong views. Russia also is actively invading Europe and sponsoring vast network of troll accounts which poison the discourse on the internet in Western c…

Pavel can't be trusted in any way. Russia is at war with Europe, russians are living in a bloody dictatorship and there is zero freedom of speech in Russia. Yet his tweet is only about western democracies in Europe - exactly what you would expect from a Putin puppet.

He also has French citizenship. Perhaps he cares about defending those values where they are still viable. That makes him more trustworthy not less.

Re: I'm turning 41, but I don't feel like celebrating

#59

Post by SilverElfin »

phs318u wrote: post #11
SilverElfin wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anonymity enabled the troll culture Anonymity enabled honesty and free expression. FTFY.

I'm old enough to remember the internet before the WWW and yes, anonymity enabled the troll culture (among other things). Honesty and free expression didn't require anonymity because people weren't being constantly monitored or having their every pronouncement judged (by the mostly anonymous). Yes, there were lots of flame-wars, but folks by and large had the gumption to hold their name to their positions. * I may be…

> Honesty and free expression didn't require anonymity because people weren't being constantly monitored or having their every pronouncement judged

This feels revisionist. The internet was almost entirely anonymous. Whether it was “required” or not is irrelevant. People could be honest and not fear censorship.

Re: I'm turning 41, but I don't feel like celebrating

#60

Post by oblio »

rockskon wrote: post #40
WA wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly and what he writes about Germany is wrong: > Germany is persecuting anyone who dares to criticize officials on the Internet No you can criticize all you want. You just can’t insult them. Free speech is different in Germany than in the US. Insulting people isn’t covered by free speech. Whether or not that is a good thing is up for debate, but Durov’s statement is plain wrong.

Sounds like a recipe for the powerful dehumanizing people using polite words and those being dehumanized being handcuffed in the range of legal responses they can make in return.

At the end of the day, powerful people will still have the upper hand anywhere in the world, you're bringing up a red herring.

It's not like by going for an ad hominem you automatically win back the argument.

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