Live data from Hacker News

Designing a Low Latency 10G Ethernet Core (2023)

ttchisholm.github.io

71–80 of 83 posts

Re: Designing a Low Latency 10G Ethernet Core (2023)

#71
post #70
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you explain why we need nanosecond trading for this? Can you explain why you wouldn't want nanosecond for this? I am quite happy to buy shares where it's the most convenient for me, knowing that someone, somewhere, is constantly arbitraging stock prices on all markets so that all prices are the same regardless. What upside is there for me, as an investor, that this happens every minute instead of every nanoseco…

> They are only competing with other delivery companies. I don't think this is true. They are trading on the same market as everybody else. People used to make money buying in market A and selling in market B. Now HFT has mostly taken over that role, for instance. Anyway, finance has created a shitload of abstraction, and at this point it isn't clear if "normal" people benefit from this or that it's just the incumben…

> People used to make money buying in market A and selling in market B. Now HFT has mostly taken over that role, for instance

Who is "People"?

Well now, I cannot claim to know what everyone did at any point in time, but allow me to be very doubtful that anyone other than a dedicated arbitrager/market maker would do that.

Or at least, I cannot conceivably see how one would do that and turn a profit without being also a market maker.

The economics of arbitraging are just too tight.

You need to spot and act on a cross exchange spread that is wider that:

- The exchange fees, for which market makers have rebates. So even at equal technological footing, MM will have an advantage over "People".

- The cost of funding, for which you will need to post IM, and thus already be a professional investor with a good amount of capital.

- If that was "before HFTs", then it was before odd lots as well. Now I don't know what the average price of a US share is, but let's say a couple hundreds of dollars, times 100 lot size. These "People" better be filthy rich in cash.

- Arbitraging at a couple of price levels (which is already a lot), minus costs, would yield you a couple bips per trade. To make any kind of real money doing that, you better do it a trillion times per day, and thus lock a huge amount of money.

- The market risk over the arbitraging period

I don't think I have seen anyone turn a profit arbitraging naively in the last 15 years that were not some kind of market maker already, or some ad-hoc strategy on very ad-hoc EM markets.

Re: Designing a Low Latency 10G Ethernet Core (2023)

#73
post #23
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like it's also got to be super stressful Imagine getting a call you system is down and is costing them millions per hour

The way to think is the opposite: your system is making millions per hour.

True. If you put in the whole system maybe.

Re: Designing a Low Latency 10G Ethernet Core (2023)

#74
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are L1 crosspoint "switches" in the 2-5ns range depending on port density and similar modes in some Ethernet silicon. These are not Ethernet switches in any normal sense though. They only replicate the signal 1:1 or 1:n and do not dynamically switch the destination based on anything in the packet. The fastest L3 Ethernet switches on the market are ~90ns.

Are L1 switches like hubs or repeaters then? Sorry for my confusion.

They're more like digital patch panels. You can connect any pair of ports together in both directions (TX/RX), just like moving a patch cable around. You can also connect an incoming RX lane to multiple TX lanes (think optical splitter but electrical). You cannot merge signals together. Some products have FPGAs that add L2+ or multiplexing functionality with packet buffers, but that's not part of the 2-5ns path.

Re: Designing a Low Latency 10G Ethernet Core (2023)

#75
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are L1 switches like hubs or repeaters then? Sorry for my confusion.

They're more like digital patch panels. You can connect any pair of ports together in both directions (TX/RX), just like moving a patch cable around. You can also connect an incoming RX lane to multiple TX lanes (think optical splitter but electrical). You cannot merge signals together. Some products have FPGAs that add L2+ or multiplexing functionality with packet buffers, but that's not part of the 2-5ns path.

So, if I know the destination addresses on each port in advance I can program it to behave like an L2 switch (with proper multicast even), and I can use code to reprogram it whenever the traffic pattern changes?

Re: Designing a Low Latency 10G Ethernet Core (2023)

#76
post #70
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you explain why we need nanosecond trading for this? Can you explain why you wouldn't want nanosecond for this? I am quite happy to buy shares where it's the most convenient for me, knowing that someone, somewhere, is constantly arbitraging stock prices on all markets so that all prices are the same regardless. What upside is there for me, as an investor, that this happens every minute instead of every nanoseco…

> They are only competing with other delivery companies. I don't think this is true. They are trading on the same market as everybody else. People used to make money buying in market A and selling in market B. Now HFT has mostly taken over that role, for instance. Anyway, finance has created a shitload of abstraction, and at this point it isn't clear if "normal" people benefit from this or that it's just the incumben…

> I don't think this is true. They are trading on the same market as everybody else. People used to make money buying in market A and selling in market B. Now HFT has mostly taken over that role, for instance.

They aren't though that's kind of the thing. HFT Market Makers (i.e. the big HFT firms) aren't just trading in the same market. They are the market. They coordinate the trades and effectively instantly sink every buy and sell into themselves and handle the matching of those spreads.

The market makers are competing against each other to offer access to the market to you.

Re: Designing a Low Latency 10G Ethernet Core (2023)

#77
post #60
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry but I don't understand any of your arguments. You are throwing things like "HFT increase the barrier to entry", "HFT make things unfair", but... how so? What would _you_ do if you had the capability to trade at the speed of light while others cannot? Trading faster does not magically make money appear in your account, it does not magically tell you what is going up and what is going down. It seems people work u…

Can you explain why we need nanosecond trading for this? Why can't we use trading speeds such that everybody can participate, not just a few "gatekeepers"? The average internet connection should be fast enough for trading, by now.

> Can you explain why we need nanosecond trading for this?

Nanosecond trading is honestly a bit unnecessary. There's academic studies somewhere that if I remember correctly showed little change in benefit to the stability of the market past tens of microseconds I think.

Now the reason why these ultra-high speeds in general are beneficial is because they make collaboration at scale or frontrunning information increasingly difficult the lower you make the trading latency.

This means that while your market makers like Jane Street may integrate outside data for predicting broad trends, the core algorithms for resolving spreads boil down to "what is the most efficient way to match these together" with little to no room for manipulation.

Market manipulation can cause volatility but your HFT market makers are going to eat that volatility at an incredible rate. Massive panics that would have triggered chaos in the streets and people dumping their 401ks get reacted to and their prices factored in within moments and as such prices adjust gradually rather than spiking and cratering and spiking again. HFT takes the blood out of the water so to speak.

Or as another example, HFT market makers act like a loosely attached mass (ex: heavy weighted chains) damping a piece of vibrating industrial equipment. Without the mass damping the system and actively pulling energy out of the vibrations reflecting through the chains, the equipment would rattle and rattle and more than likely the bolts fixing it to the ground would start to work their way loose. And once they are loose, vibrations can start to amplify into oscillations (doubly so if it's a "smart" system involving humans where you experience PIOs) and the stress on the system grows greater and greater. With those chains however each and every little vibration gets nearly any excess energy sucked out of it by the irregular reflections produced within the chains. That loss of energy dampens the vibrations down and while the machine is unimpeded in performing its function inside of itself, the excess energy in the form of vibrations, etc is heavily suppressed or effectively eliminated entirely helping reduce failures, stresses, and wear.

(Sorry for the overworded analogy but the mass-vibration damping analogy is really quite fitting to the way markets operate).

With the average internet latency (say 50-100ms) you can game the system and gain information early with expensive high speed links sharing the news around the world in a way that has near zero value due to diminishing returns w/ lower latency. Especially once light comes into play. If the competitive latency is on the order of distances light can travel within a country, that means once you factor out the essential parts that can't be cut out/sped up, what's left is a very small sliver that can be split between algorithms to make as efficient of trades as possible, algorithms to try and game the system, and integrating knowledge from distances proportional to the time it takes for light to travel it.

In other words at that speed you just can't really play fuck fuck games. The winning move is finding better local strategies (vs global strategies like market manipulation or exploiting information before it propagates).

/rant (sorry I should probably edit this down because I repeat myself a lot here but it's late and i'm tired so i'm just sending it.

Re: Designing a Low Latency 10G Ethernet Core (2023)

#78
post #41
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bit unfair to call it pointless. Empirical studies have shown that HFT increase liquidity in markets, leading to narrowed spreads, market depth, faster execution speeds, cross-market informational efficiency, etc. All of these are generally beneficial to other non-HFT market participants. Now you might counter that it also brings some negatives (e.g. fleeting liquidity, market manipulation risk, etc.) and ther…

> Also, it's not pointless to the person actually engaging in HFT if they are making money from it. Activities aren't pointless if they pay your rent, put food on your table, etc. You have to look at the bigger picture. HFT companies only increase the barrier to entry to participate in the market. This means that while you may be able to put food on the table, you make it more difficult for other people to put food o…

If you're a normal market participant, HFT companies mainly make it harder for someone else to take more money off of the top of your underlying transaction (and you are, in general, going to be paying someone for that). HFT almost completely replaced hoards of the stereotypical wall street traders and I don't really see many people shedding tears for them.

Re: Designing a Low Latency 10G Ethernet Core (2023)

#79
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're more like digital patch panels. You can connect any pair of ports together in both directions (TX/RX), just like moving a patch cable around. You can also connect an incoming RX lane to multiple TX lanes (think optical splitter but electrical). You cannot merge signals together. Some products have FPGAs that add L2+ or multiplexing functionality with packet buffers, but that's not part of the 2-5ns path.

So, if I know the destination addresses on each port in advance I can program it to behave like an L2 switch (with proper multicast even), and I can use code to reprogram it whenever the traffic pattern changes?

The L1 path can't do any address matching and you can't overlap sources - like Ghostbusters, no crossing the streams. You can source port 1 to ports 2-4 (multicast, but static and unidirectional) and you can change a bidir connection between pairs of ports. The signal gets replicated regardless of what's in the frame. It wouldn't be practical to make it behave quite like an L2 switch.

Re: Designing a Low Latency 10G Ethernet Core (2023)

#80
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, if I know the destination addresses on each port in advance I can program it to behave like an L2 switch (with proper multicast even), and I can use code to reprogram it whenever the traffic pattern changes?

The L1 path can't do any address matching and you can't overlap sources - like Ghostbusters, no crossing the streams. You can source port 1 to ports 2-4 (multicast, but static and unidirectional) and you can change a bidir connection between pairs of ports. The signal gets replicated regardless of what's in the frame. It wouldn't be practical to make it behave quite like an L2 switch.

Apologies, my post was not precise enough, but I think I got it.

> It wouldn't be practical to make it behave quite like an L2 switch.

What are typical configuration? If you’re allowed to talk about it.

Post reply on HN