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Designing a Low Latency 10G Ethernet Core (2023)

ttchisholm.github.io

61–70 of 83 posts

Re: Designing a Low Latency 10G Ethernet Core (2023)

#61
post #57
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> HFTs killing the spreads is one of the only reasons the markets didn't implode during covid despite the extraordinary fear and volatility that was impacting them. And why would this not be possible if everybody traded at the same, low, frequency? Alternatively, what is the minimum trading frequency required to save markets from collapsing? By trying to answer these questions you see how ridiculous the situation wit…

Sorry but I don't understand any of your arguments. You are throwing things like "HFT increase the barrier to entry", "HFT make things unfair", but... how so? What would _you_ do if you had the capability to trade at the speed of light while others cannot? Trading faster does not magically make money appear in your account, it does not magically tell you what is going up and what is going down. It seems people work u…

I think it would also be useful to distinguish between high frequency and low latency trading in these sorts of discussions. The groups of traders that do actual high frequency are not the same ones that are doing shenanigans with things like speculative Ethernet frame invalidation (at least on the same engine).

Re: Designing a Low Latency 10G Ethernet Core (2023)

#63
post #39
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It seems fun to be a high frequency FPGA trader designer. Yes, if you think that doing pointless work is fun. What do you tell your grandchildren?

It's a bit unfair to call it pointless. Empirical studies have shown that HFT increase liquidity in markets, leading to narrowed spreads, market depth, faster execution speeds, cross-market informational efficiency, etc. All of these are generally beneficial to other non-HFT market participants. Now you might counter that it also brings some negatives (e.g. fleeting liquidity, market manipulation risk, etc.) and ther…

It's pointless in terms of the skill wasted that could be used for actual cool things. But I agree that more market participants is better. And whether I'm buying or selling, I always want someone to trade with, vs not.

Re: Designing a Low Latency 10G Ethernet Core (2023)

#64
post #3
post #2

It seems fun to be a high frequency FPGA trader designer. All my FPGA is much lower power consumption so I don't get to play with stuff like gigs of external SRAM or the QDR stuff or whatnot

I feel like it's also got to be super stressful Imagine getting a call you system is down and is costing them millions per hour

You can code a failsafe, or what they call in other industries, an interlock. If an order exceeds some sane limit, or a loss is incurred that exceeds a limit, or the limit-checker fails to proactively ping the interlock, then an independent mechanism shuts it down.

This is how, say, a modern x-ray machine prevents itself from failing in a way that radiation gets stuck on.

Re: Designing a Low Latency 10G Ethernet Core (2023)

#65
post #60
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry but I don't understand any of your arguments. You are throwing things like "HFT increase the barrier to entry", "HFT make things unfair", but... how so? What would _you_ do if you had the capability to trade at the speed of light while others cannot? Trading faster does not magically make money appear in your account, it does not magically tell you what is going up and what is going down. It seems people work u…

Can you explain why we need nanosecond trading for this? Why can't we use trading speeds such that everybody can participate, not just a few "gatekeepers"? The average internet connection should be fast enough for trading, by now.

> Can you explain why we need nanosecond trading for this?

Can you explain why you wouldn't want nanosecond for this?

I am quite happy to buy shares where it's the most convenient for me, knowing that someone, somewhere, is constantly arbitraging stock prices on all markets so that all prices are the same regardless.

What upside is there for me, as an investor, that this happens every minute instead of every nanosecond? None, it's objectively worse.

> Why can't we use trading speeds such that everybody can participate, not just a few "gatekeepers"?

But that makes no sense... HFTs are not _competing_ with regular market participants, on the contrary they are providing a service to them. The only competitor to HFTs are other HFTs, because, well, they are providing the same service.

If you want to "participate" in something and you feel hindered by HFTs, that basically means you are not a typical investor, but rather a market maker / arbitrager, so then... competition is fair game, have fun.

Your argument is akin to "we should limit the speed of UPS trucks because I want to compete but I cannot afford to buy fancy trucks". UPS does not prevent the normal operation of package delivery, nor are they competing with people receiving packages. They are only competing with other delivery companies.

> The average internet connection should be fast enough for trading, by now.

Well even if we were to put latency aside, no, your internet connection won't cut it anyway, at least not for any kind of direct market access.

First, not anybody can "do DMA". There are a vast quantity of regulations, licenses, tests, audits, and fees to be an exchange participant. Regulators don't let just anyone participate on public exchanges, even on emerging markets.

1) Be a regulated entity, pass individual certifications, have a risk, legal and compliance team, yearly assessments, etc.

2) Pay a lot of money for access to the exchange market data live ($10k-$100k/month/exchange).

3) Have all your algos certified, risk assessed, and staged on the scenarios the exchange will provide you with.

4) There is no multicast on internet, and anyway unless you have a Solarflare/Mellanox NIC at home, and a crazy good ISP, you won't ingest 10Gb linerate that simply.

5) You need all the things around the ecosystem... symbology, security master, etc...

6) Even cash equities need to be settled, you will need a custodian and a back office, stocks are not tokens that magically change hands. Someone need to post cash, update company records, custody collateral, handle corporate actions, etc

There is no world in which a _regular_ investor will touch the markets directly anyway, everybody goes through a broker or deals with HFTs for order flow, and it's not "just because they are faster", there is a world of complexity/regulation/etc that goes with it.

Even most of the top hedge funds in the world are not direct market participants, but rather use brokers.

The very reason multistrat funds even exist and are so attractive, is that you can net your trades internally at mid and avoid even having to use lit orderbooks, reducing your market impact.

So, no, I don't think anyone sees HFTs as a hindrance, nor are willing to be market participants. This sounds sounds a bit like a naive simplification of the state of things (I don't mean it derisively, it's not a trivial subject).

Re: Designing a Low Latency 10G Ethernet Core (2023)

#66
post #33
post #2

It seems fun to be a high frequency FPGA trader designer. All my FPGA is much lower power consumption so I don't get to play with stuff like gigs of external SRAM or the QDR stuff or whatnot

> It seems fun to be a high frequency FPGA trader designer. Yes, if you think that doing pointless work is fun. What do you tell your grandchildren?

“You’re welcome for the education and good home full of books.”

Re: Designing a Low Latency 10G Ethernet Core (2023)

#67
post #31

less than 60ns loopback latency There are some Ethernet switches with 4ns latency, and those do more than just sending and receiving, so there's clearly still an order of magnitude of improvement still available. 4ns is basically ~40 cycles of the bit clock for 10G Ethernet.

There are L1 crosspoint "switches" in the 2-5ns range depending on port density and similar modes in some Ethernet silicon. These are not Ethernet switches in any normal sense though. They only replicate the signal 1:1 or 1:n and do not dynamically switch the destination based on anything in the packet. The fastest L3 Ethernet switches on the market are ~90ns.

Are L1 switches like hubs or repeaters then? Sorry for my confusion.

Re: Designing a Low Latency 10G Ethernet Core (2023)

#68
post #57
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> HFTs killing the spreads is one of the only reasons the markets didn't implode during covid despite the extraordinary fear and volatility that was impacting them. And why would this not be possible if everybody traded at the same, low, frequency? Alternatively, what is the minimum trading frequency required to save markets from collapsing? By trying to answer these questions you see how ridiculous the situation wit…

Sorry but I don't understand any of your arguments. You are throwing things like "HFT increase the barrier to entry", "HFT make things unfair", but... how so? What would _you_ do if you had the capability to trade at the speed of light while others cannot? Trading faster does not magically make money appear in your account, it does not magically tell you what is going up and what is going down. It seems people work u…

[deleted]

Re: Designing a Low Latency 10G Ethernet Core (2023)

#70
post #65
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain why we need nanosecond trading for this? Why can't we use trading speeds such that everybody can participate, not just a few "gatekeepers"? The average internet connection should be fast enough for trading, by now.

> Can you explain why we need nanosecond trading for this? Can you explain why you wouldn't want nanosecond for this? I am quite happy to buy shares where it's the most convenient for me, knowing that someone, somewhere, is constantly arbitraging stock prices on all markets so that all prices are the same regardless. What upside is there for me, as an investor, that this happens every minute instead of every nanoseco…

> They are only competing with other delivery companies.

I don't think this is true. They are trading on the same market as everybody else. People used to make money buying in market A and selling in market B. Now HFT has mostly taken over that role, for instance.

Anyway, finance has created a shitload of abstraction, and at this point it isn't clear if "normal" people benefit from this or that it's just the incumbents.

To make another analogy, yes, feudal lords provided some benefits to the peasants, such as safety and shelter. But you really have to step away from the entire construct to see if they are really better off. This is what is missing in your argumentation, imho.

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