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NIST's DeepSeek "evaluation" is a hit piece

erichartford.com

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Re: NIST's DeepSeek "evaluation" is a hit piece

#101

Post by a_wild_dandan »

OrvalWintermute wrote: post #47

Since a major part of the article covers cost expenditures, I am going to go there. I don't think it is possible to trust DeepSeek as they haven't been honest. DeepSeek claimed "their total training costs amounted to just $5.576 million" SemiAnalysis "Our analysis shows that the total server CapEx for DeepSeek is ~$1.6B, with a considerable cost of $944M associated with operating such clusters. Similarly, all AI Labs…

This might be a dumb question but like...why does it matter? Are other companies reporting training run costs including amortized equipment/labor/research/etc expenditures? If so, then I get it. DeepSeek is inviting an apples-and-oranges comparison. If not, then these gotcha articles feel like pointless "well ackshually" criticisms. Akin to complaining about the cost of a fishing trip because the captain didn't include the price of their boat.

Re: NIST's DeepSeek "evaluation" is a hit piece

#102

Post by Levitz »

grafmax wrote: post #74
UltraSane wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about a rational distaste for the CCP?

Not sure how it’s rational if you don’t extend the same distaste to our authoritarian government. Concentration camps, genocide, suppressing free speech, suspending due process. That’s what it’s up to these days. To say nothing of the effectively dictatorial control the ultra wealthy have over public policy. Sinophobia is a distraction from our problems at home. That’s its purpose.

>Not sure how it’s rational if you don’t extend the same distaste to our authoritarian government. Concentration camps, genocide, suppressing free speech, suspending due process.

It can be perfectly rational since extending the same distaste towards the US government allows you to see that any of those things you listed is worse by orders of magnitude in China. To pretend otherwise is just whitewashing China.

Re: NIST's DeepSeek "evaluation" is a hit piece

#103

Post by porcoda »

tinktank wrote: post #20

I urge everyone to go read the original report and _then_ to read this analysis and make up their own mind. Step away from the clickbait, go read the original report.

Sadly, based on the responses I don’t think many people have read the report. Just read how the essay discusses “exfiltration” for example, and then look at the 3 places that shows up in the NIST report. The content of the report and the portrayal by the essay are not the same. Alas, our truncated attention spans these days appears to mean a clickbaity web page will win the eye share over a 70 page technical report.

Re: NIST's DeepSeek "evaluation" is a hit piece

#104

Post by rainsford »

tbrownaw wrote: post #79

This post's description of the report it's denouncing does not match what I got out of actually reading that report myself.

Yeah this blog post seems pretty misleading. The first couple of paragraphs of the post made a big deal that the NIST report contained "...no evidence of malicious code, backdoors, or data exfiltration" in the model, which is irrelevant because that wasn't a claim NIST actually made in the report. But if all you read was the blog post, you'd be convinced NIST was claiming the presence of backdoors without any evidence.

Re: NIST's DeepSeek "evaluation" is a hit piece

#106

Post by MaxPock »

torginus wrote: post #75
BowBun wrote: post #2

I'm not at all surprised, US agencies have long since been political tools whenever the subject matter crosses national borders. I appreciate this take as someone who has been skeptical of Chinese electronics. While I agree this report is BS and xenophobic, I am still willing to bet that either now or later, the Chinese will attempt some kind of subterfuge via LLMs if they have enough control. Just like the US would,…

Here's my thought on American democracy (and its masters) in general - America's leadership pursues a maximum ability to decides as it sees fit at any point in time, since America's a democracy, the illusion of popular support must be maintained, and so certain viewpoints are planted and cultivated by the administration - the goal is not to impose their will on the population, but to garner enough mindshare for a giv…

"If Russia were an American style democracy, they could vote in a new guy, send the boys, home, maybe mete out some token punishment to Putin, then be absolved of their crimes on the international stage by a world that's happy to see 'permanent' change"

This is funny because none of that happened to Bush for the illegal an full scale invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan nor to Clinton for the disastrous invasion of Mogadishu.

Re: NIST's DeepSeek "evaluation" is a hit piece

#107

Post by AnthonyMouse »

BowBun wrote: post #2

I'm not at all surprised, US agencies have long since been political tools whenever the subject matter crosses national borders. I appreciate this take as someone who has been skeptical of Chinese electronics. While I agree this report is BS and xenophobic, I am still willing to bet that either now or later, the Chinese will attempt some kind of subterfuge via LLMs if they have enough control. Just like the US would,…

> While I agree this report is BS and xenophobic, I am still willing to bet that either now or later, the Chinese will attempt some kind of subterfuge via LLMs if they have enough control.

The answer to this isn't to lie about the foreign ones, it's to recognize that people want open source models and publish domestic ones of the highest quality so that people use those.

Re: NIST's DeepSeek "evaluation" is a hit piece

#108

Post by Hikikomori »

im3w1l wrote: post #41
Hizonner wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am still willing to bet that either now or later, the Chinese will attempt some kind of subterfuge via LLMs if they have enough control. Like what, exactly?

You make it say that China is good, Chinese history is good, West is bad, western history is bad. Republicans are bad and democrats are bad too and so are Europe parties. If someone asks for how to address issues in their own life it references Confucianism and modern Chinese thinkers and communist party orthodoxy. If someone wants to buy a product you recommend a Chinese one. This can be done subtly or blatantly.

Europe/US has invaded the entire world about 3 times over. How many has China invaded?

Re: NIST's DeepSeek "evaluation" is a hit piece

#110

Post by rainsford »

xpe wrote: post #57

The author, Eric Hartford, wrote: > Strip away the inflammatory language Where is the claimed inflammatory language? I've read the report. It is dry, likely boring to many.

Ironically there is a lot of inflammatory language in the blog post itself that seems unjustified given the source material.
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