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How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

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Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#871

Post by zawaideh »

ropable wrote: post #719

The situation in Gaza is horrifying and despair-inducing. While acknowledging the incredibly complex historical context of the region and the security bind that Israel is in, IMO they have surrendered all moral authority by their actions there. The military campaign and blockade of aid into Gaza is wildly disproportionate and monstrous.

Denying Palestinians their basic human rights to create an apartheid ethno state is not complex.

The narrative that “it is complex therefore there is nothing to be done” is meant to paralyze people from standing up for what’s right.

The solution has always been a single democratic secular state from the river to the sea. For all inhabitants of the land. Including those expelled previously.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#872

Post by [deleted] »

immibis wrote: post #801
andrewcamel wrote: post #776

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What response would you suggest for Israel? My understanding is their civilian vs combatant ratio is lower than comparable urban conflicts. So it’s hard to respond “softer”. Population adjusted, 10/7 was 10x+ worse than 9/11. Challenging to expect zero response. So what else is there?

How come Israel is supposed to respond to Palestinian actions but Palestine isn't supposed to respond to Israeli actions?

[deleted]

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#873

Post by m000 »

dotancohen wrote: post #809
BrenBarn wrote: post #709

Earlier quoted context omitted.

International law forbids a lot of things Israel already does. If it respected international law it would withdraw to its internationally recognized borders.

Israel's internationally recognized borders are the borders of Mandatory Palestine. The 1948 borders were ceasefire lines - the fact that they were not internationally recognized borders was for decades the justification for cross-border attacks.

Schrodinger's borders: both internationally recognized and internationally not recognized.

This just sounds like uncritical parroting.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#874

Post by parineum »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #784
parineum wrote: post #711

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think killing Sinwar means much. Israel definitely wanted him dead but, to their national security, it doesn't mean anything. Sinwar isn't unique and he'd just be replaced by the next guy who wants to do the same thing and also doesn't care if he's made a martyr in the process. Strategically, they have to destroy the entirety of Hamas and hope the Palestinians are allowed to and do elect better leadership. An…

> don't think killing Sinwar means much. Israel definitely wanted him dead but, to their national security, it doesn't mean anything You don't think the next jackass who pitches an October 7th attack won't get second thoughts from his lieutenants when they consider that all of them will be killed, their friends and families--best case--rendered homeless, their cause set back decades, all while Israel suffers fewer de…

If they were able to repeat Oct 7, I think they'd gladly be martyred for that.

I think Sinwar would have loved to stay alive and recommit his attrocities but martyrdom is a nice consolation prize. The next in line should be so lucky.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#876

Post by lossolo »

dlahoda wrote: post #857
lossolo wrote: post #851

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This, for Israel it was a perfect pretext. Netanyahu financed Hamas through Qatar for years because he knew that Hamas is a destructive force for Palestinians and their struggle for nationhood. It was a cold, cynical decision. He exploited the anger and emotions of the people after October 7th to justify what he is doing now.

any links for research proving you state?

In an interview with Politico in 2023, former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said that "In the last 15 years, Israel did everything to downgrade the Palestinian Authority and to boost Hamas." He continued saying "Gaza was on the brink of collapse because they had no resources, they had no money, and the PA refused to give Hamas any money. Bibi saved them. Bibi made a deal with Qatar and they started to move millions and millions of dollars to Gaza." At a Likud party conference in 2019, Benjamin Netanyahu said:

"Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas ... This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank."

Gershon Hacohen, former commander of the 7th Armored Brigade and an associate of Benjamin Netanyahu, said in 2019 in an interview:

“Netanyahu’s strategy is to prevent the option of two states, so he is turning Hamas into his closest partner. Openly Hamas is an enemy. Covertly, it’s an ally.”

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up...

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-q...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_support_for_Hamas

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#877

Post by JumpCrisscross »

lossolo wrote: post #851
DrScientist wrote: post #838

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly I think you are mistaken to paint it as an irrational Israel lashing out - that's too generous. I think it's quite the opposite - there has been a very clear, cold, calculated strategy - which is to use the conflict as an cover for doing what some in the government have always wanted to do ( and been quite open about it ) - which is to create a greater Israel - drive out all Palestinians from the river to the s…

This, for Israel it was a perfect pretext. Netanyahu financed Hamas through Qatar for years because he knew that Hamas is a destructive force for Palestinians and their struggle for nationhood. It was a cold, cynical decision. He exploited the anger and emotions of the people after October 7th to justify what he is doing now.

> Netanyahu financed Hamas through Qatar for years because he knew that Hamas is a destructive force for Palestinians and their struggle for nationhood

It's probably as simple as Netanyahu's branded himself as Israel's protector, and if Palestine were to become less threatening, his political prospects sink.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#878

Post by piltdownman »

DrScientist wrote: post #838
A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #591

Israel's response to Oct 7th has been a major blackpill. Their strategy was, I think, as bad as it could possibly be. In fact, it really seemed, and still seems, like no strategy at all -- they lashed out wildly and extremely destructively, without a clear picture of what the post-war Gaza Strip will look like. Hamas successfully baited Israel into a disproportionate response that killed tens of thousands, if not hun…

Sadly I think you are mistaken to paint it as an irrational Israel lashing out - that's too generous. I think it's quite the opposite - there has been a very clear, cold, calculated strategy - which is to use the conflict as an cover for doing what some in the government have always wanted to do ( and been quite open about it ) - which is to create a greater Israel - drive out all Palestinians from the river to the s…

Here's a thought experiment to underline that, in case there's any confusion.

Q. How many times did any Countries hold islamic-only real-estate expos in Mosques for the former and future homes and territories of Jewish peoples either already dispossessed or planned to be dispossessed due to fundamentalist islamic occupation? _Zero_

Q. How many times did any Countries held jewish-only real-estate expos in Synagogues for the former homes and territories of Muslim peoples either already dispossessed or planned to be dispossessed due to zionist occupation? _Countless_

https://lapublicpress.org/2024/09/israeli-real-estate-fair-h...

https://halifax.citynews.ca/2024/03/07/palestine-is-not-for-...

https://www.timesofisrael.com/after-drawing-protests-in-othe...

https://www.laconverse.com/en/articles/les-coulisses-dun-sal...

They're now at the point where they're paying their contractors $1,500 a house demolished, and constantly inciting violent engagement so as to get the IDF involved and sanitise the area - most notably near the supposed humanitarian relief distribution points they're so fond of double-tap bombing.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20250630-shocking-israeli-...

N.B. Israel is now concentrating on the remaining medical facilities, and has carried out at least 17 attacks on or in the vicinity of healthcare facilities in Gaza City since 16 September. (https://www.bmj.com/content/391/bmj.r2078)

Three healthcare facilities—Al Quds Hospital, Al Rantisi Children’s Hospital, and the Medical Relief Health Centre—have all been directly hit, while further strikes were recorded in the vicinity of two more, Al Shifa Medical Complex and Al Ahli Hospital.

Currently, across the Gaza Strip, only 2000 hospital beds remain available, for a population of over 2 million people.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#879

Post by tsimionescu »

tzs wrote: post #196
tsimionescu wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Killing 736 Israeli civilians, 79 foreign nationals, and 379 Israeli military and security personnel, and kidnapping an additional 250 civilians is not, by any fathomable definition, genocide. It is a war crime for sure, but it's not genocide. Edit: the post I was replying to was claiming Hamas/the Palestinians perpetrated a genocide in Israel. It has since been edited to be a completely different thing.

I think you are mixing up genocide and the acts that are committed in furtherance of genocide. Genocide is legally a set of acts committed with the intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group. So yes, what Hamas did on Oct 7 was not genocide, and similarly what Israel does on any given day in Gaza is not genocide. Rather they are both part of ongoing campaigns that arguably are genocide.

This is patent absurdity. What Hamas did on October 7th was an atrocity and a war crime. Many of the perpetrators, and of Hamas military leadership, would be very happy to be able to commit genocide against the people of Israel, and maybe even Jewish people in general.

However, there's no such thing as "unsuccessful genocide". Wanting to commit genocide and even terrorist bombings which target the population you'd like to exterminate are not genocide. To be committing the crime of genocide, you have to actually be in a position where you are actively displacing or exterminating a population.

Israel is committing genocide in Gaza since October 7th, because they are actively working towards a goal of eliminating the Palestinian population from the Gaza territory, or at least from the majority of it. They have already achieved a part of the genocide. They're not going all scorched earth and killing by the millions for the same reason they're not launching one of their illegal nukes in Gaza: they fear international reaction if the move is too sudden and overwhelming.

Hamas, by contrast, is not committing genocide in Israel, because it's not actively killing or starving or displacing any part of the population of Israel. I'm sure Hamas would love to do that, but it's a simple obvious fact that they're not succeeding. This is like claiming that Al Qaeda has an ongoing campaign of genocide of the West, because of 9/11 and some other attacks on, say, British troops.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#880

Post by UncleMeat »

YZF wrote: post #736
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what would you do if you're Israel? Let in the food. Flood Gaza with food, actually, so it stops being a recruitment tool for militants.

If that solved the problem I would endorse it. I don't see how it does or how you do it. How do you get food to all of Gaza while there is raging fighting? The biggest problem is in Gaza city where there is intense fighting. The southern areas have a lot more food. How do we flood Gaza city with food? Ceasefire? We had one. Then what? Let's plan this in more detail. Who is going to distribute the food in Gaza? Who in…

Feeding people is a good of its own. "We have to blockade food because distribution is logistically challenging" is ridiculous.
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