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How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

cnn.com

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Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#801

Post by immibis »

andrewcamel wrote: post #776
A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #591

Israel's response to Oct 7th has been a major blackpill. Their strategy was, I think, as bad as it could possibly be. In fact, it really seemed, and still seems, like no strategy at all -- they lashed out wildly and extremely destructively, without a clear picture of what the post-war Gaza Strip will look like. Hamas successfully baited Israel into a disproportionate response that killed tens of thousands, if not hun…

What response would you suggest for Israel? My understanding is their civilian vs combatant ratio is lower than comparable urban conflicts. So it’s hard to respond “softer”. Population adjusted, 10/7 was 10x+ worse than 9/11. Challenging to expect zero response. So what else is there?

How come Israel is supposed to respond to Palestinian actions but Palestine isn't supposed to respond to Israeli actions?

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#803

Post by klipt »

interstice wrote: post #787
andrewcamel wrote: post #776

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What response would you suggest for Israel? My understanding is their civilian vs combatant ratio is lower than comparable urban conflicts. So it’s hard to respond “softer”. Population adjusted, 10/7 was 10x+ worse than 9/11. Challenging to expect zero response. So what else is there?

Would you happen to have sources for this?

One interesting comparison I saw is the Siege of Mariupol. The fighting there had very high rates of civilian deaths (per day, and also vs combatant deaths), but:

* a large portion of civilians (and thus civilian casualties) in Mariupol actually identify as ethnic Russians, so it seems unlikely Russia targeted them intentionally

* nobody has filed a genocide case against Russia on the basis of the large number of civilian deaths in Mariupol

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#804

Post by axython »

jijijijij wrote: post #489
axython wrote: post #260

For anyone commenting on this, I'll leave this: Official aid delivery reported by UN. I'd also assume this to be of the lower side, as there probably is more that doesn't get reported thorugh UN 27720 mechanism. I find the fact that this article does not use this or point to this data very questionable, but maybe I am wrong and I am imagining things. https://app.un2720.org/tracking

> Intercepted - Either peacefully by hungry people or forcefully by armed actors, during transit in Gaza I presume you meant to suggest Hamas is bathing in baby formula, but your link isn't evidence for that. It could be desperate people doing desperate things, you know, because they are starving.

Nope. My main question is why journalists do not use official, readily available data, but instead talk about bullshit. How can you talk about aid, famine and not put this information in there is beyond me. The problem is not aid. the problem as proven by UN data is logistics and interceptions by someone(probably mostly Hamas, but even if it's some other peaceful side) How do we deal with that?

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#805

Post by JumpCrisscross »

churchill wrote: post #798
pyuser583 wrote: post #750

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m one of the folks whose opinion of Israel has shifted. I don’t see them as a “genocidal terrorist state.” I see them as “just another middle eastern country.” While it’s bad what’s happening, it’s still nowhere near Syrian or Yemeni levels, although that may change. The best analogy I can think of is the Allied conduct in Germany at the end of WWII. WWII was a just and defensive war. But the bombing of Dresden and…

>I’m one of the folks whose opinion of Israel has shifted. I don’t see them as a “genocidal terrorist state.” I see them as “just another middle eastern country.” Okay. Opinions are on a spectrum. just like you, hundreds of millions of people who used to be pretty neutral on Israel now have strong opinions on the country. As a country, you generally want to blend in like Singapore/Switzerland and just not attract att…

> Western voters are childlike and emotional. They hate seeing blood on screen, children crying, starving, dying, being squeezed in queues for food

There are like half a dozen wars of extermination currently occuring with lots of disturbing footage. Nobody really cares. Israel is close to home because it's an ally and we styled it as a Western-style democracy (versus something closer to the Middle Eastern democracy it is.)

> Tell that to Western voters who will be voting for 50 years. No one cares. just make it stop

There are precisely zero foreign policy issues that have survived this long on the back of vibes alone.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#806

Post by jameshilliard »

immibis wrote: post #799
jameshilliard wrote: post #746

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The most basic principle in democratic government is that those subject to the monopoly of violence should also have a voice in how that violence is managed. I'm pretty sure most democracies also have a right to decide who can become a citizen. Forcing a country to give citizenship to enemy combatants would be kinda crazy, regardless of whether or not the territory those combatants operate from is under a military…

Isn't that basically the USA regime's logic for stripping citizenship from people who vote against the regime?

The current USA regime is attempting all sorts of dumb nonsense, but birthright citizenship certainly isn't universal among countries either. I'm not a citizen of the country I was born in.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#807

Post by tomhow »

churchill wrote: post #31
boxed wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

[flagged]

> [David Attenborough voice]

Please don't comment like this on HN. We all know it's an awful situation. It needs to be discussed with sincerity, even if we find other people's opinions about it to be abhorrent. It's unbecoming to use tropes like this to sneer at other people's positions.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#808

Post by lejalv »

aristofun wrote: post #681
magicalhippo wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So yes, maybe Israel started the war, not least by colonizing a territory and forcibly displacing its inhabitants (also called “stealing their land). As well as ensuring funding of Hamas[1][2], and willfully ignoring warnings the attack was imminent[3][4]. [1]: https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/netanyahu-money-... [2]: https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/seized-documents-qatar-fun... [3]: https://www.jpost.…

Name few exact cities, villages that were stolen? With trustworthy prooflinks about all the details of those specific places being stolen. Before that your comment with abstract yellow news posts is just a dumb propaganda.

All of it. The entire place.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#809

Post by dotancohen »

BrenBarn wrote: post #709
bawolff wrote: post #685

Earlier quoted context omitted.

International law forbids the occupying power to give voting rights to occupied regions. Its also a bit unclear what you mean by "unambiguously under Israeli control" since Palestinians in occupied palestinian territories aren't unambigiously under Israeli control, they had little control over the inside of Gaza until recently, and have some power in the west bank that is shared with the PA. Neither is "unambiguous c…

International law forbids a lot of things Israel already does. If it respected international law it would withdraw to its internationally recognized borders.

Israel's internationally recognized borders are the borders of Mandatory Palestine. The 1948 borders were ceasefire lines - the fact that they were not internationally recognized borders was for decades the justification for cross-border attacks.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#810

Post by tweetle_beetle »

xenocratus wrote: post #733
culi wrote: post #728

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In fact, it really seemed, and still seems, like no strategy at all Since 2005, Israel has maintained a strategy for managing Gaza called "mowing the grass"[0][1] in which every few years they attack and conduct short, sharp military operations. This is in contrast to their strategy of (illegal) settlements in the West Bank. In fact, they removed 8,000 settlers in 2005 when they began this strategy. Besides the maj…

> I find it extremely hard to believe Israel didn't know, with extreme detail, what they were getting themselves into I find it extremely hard to believe Israel didn't know about the Oct 7 attack in the first place, and chose to use it as a reason.

It's hard to react to something when it's in your interests not to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Benjamin_Netanyahu

Some of the allegations are 15 years old at this point and the trial is still ongoing.

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