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How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

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Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#621

Post by anigbrowl »

flyinglizard wrote: post #597
A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #591

Israel's response to Oct 7th has been a major blackpill. Their strategy was, I think, as bad as it could possibly be. In fact, it really seemed, and still seems, like no strategy at all -- they lashed out wildly and extremely destructively, without a clear picture of what the post-war Gaza Strip will look like. Hamas successfully baited Israel into a disproportionate response that killed tens of thousands, if not hun…

We can talk endlessly about strategy and long term implications (for example, the destruction of the Iranian "ring of fire" network of proxies, the permanent changes in Syria and Lebanon, etc), but consider something much more basic: Israelis around Gaza can finally live securely. There are no rockets coming from Gaza, no mortars, no chance of another October 7th or smaller incursions as long as the Israeli military…

I'm pretty sure people said the same thing after operation Cast Lead and other previous crackdowns. A country making itself into an international pariah while pursuing local security from an antagonist it nurtured in the first place is extremely myopic. As this conflict has dragged on, it has become more and more apparent that a great many Israelis (including in government) view their strategic situation through the lens of ancient historical conflicts from >2000 years ago and fantasize about resorting to the triumphant excesses of legend. Mass psychosis is not a good basis for long-term security.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#622

Post by dlubarov »

potatototoo99 wrote: post #295
_DeadFred_ wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

If we were to believe Israel, why did they ban foreign media from Gaza? I'm sure the "most moral" army in the world has nothing to hide?

> why did they ban foreign media from Gaza

For the same various reasons (safety, opsec, etc) every modern military does. Ukraine for example only allows invited, escorted media in "red" zones. Most people seem to understand and accept such restrictions, except when it's Israel.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#623

Post by emmelaich »

LightBug1 wrote: post #518
TrnsltLife wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of all people?

I don't know much about Charlie Kirk except what I've read recently. But he does/did seem to be part of a growing element of the right in the USA who stand against Israel and Netanyahu specifically. And while I support that, I don't think it's necessarily to support Palestinians, but more as an America First policy. In that context, "of all people" makes sense to me. I too have been surprised by the move, of some on…

You be aware of this study indicating more diversity of opinion on the right vs left.

https://bpspsychub.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/bjso....

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#624

Post by JumpCrisscross »

softwaredoug wrote: post #601
A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #591

Israel's response to Oct 7th has been a major blackpill. Their strategy was, I think, as bad as it could possibly be. In fact, it really seemed, and still seems, like no strategy at all -- they lashed out wildly and extremely destructively, without a clear picture of what the post-war Gaza Strip will look like. Hamas successfully baited Israel into a disproportionate response that killed tens of thousands, if not hun…

> the US is slowly distancing itself. Public opinion in the US has turned against Israel, yes. Trump doesn't care about public opinion. He'll be buddy-buddy to Netanyahu other than symbolic acts of distancing / reprimanding.

> Trump doesn't care about public opinion

Of course he does. But he's currently most sensitive to Republican voters' opinions, and they're still at 64% net sympathy for Israel and 9% for Palestine. (55% of Trump voters say "Israel should continue its military campaign until Hamas is fully eliminated, even if it means the civilian casualties in Gaza might continue," while only 29% say "Israel should stop its military campaign in order to protect against civilian casualties, even if Hamas has not been fully eliminated" [1].)

As the midterms come closer, that 26% independent net support for Israel becomes more pertinent, as do the 67% of independents who want Israel to stop its campaign.

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/10/02/polls/times-s...

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#625

Post by jayveeone »

babyshake wrote: post #615
ciconia wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The division is not about the starvation of Gaza. All Zionist parties in the Israeli parliament support the military campaign in Gaza. Apart from some lip-service from left-wing leaders, to my knowledge no Jewish leader has spoken against the starvation. Israeli media (except for Haaretz) have largely denied that there is a famine, and have called it a "propaganda campaign" by the Hamas.

My understanding is the defense made by Zionist parties is more that Hamas has culpability in the starvation. I haven't seen this claim verified or debunked sufficiently to have a strong opinion about it but it at least seems within reason to me that Hamas is acting in bad faith and is weaponizing starvation of Gaza residents.

Perhaps the fact that the Israeli state are the only ones making this claim, and many multiple experts, humanitarians, countries, leaders, are saying the exact opposite should be sufficient enough to debunk the claim.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#626

Post by JumpCrisscross »

A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #591

Israel's response to Oct 7th has been a major blackpill. Their strategy was, I think, as bad as it could possibly be. In fact, it really seemed, and still seems, like no strategy at all -- they lashed out wildly and extremely destructively, without a clear picture of what the post-war Gaza Strip will look like. Hamas successfully baited Israel into a disproportionate response that killed tens of thousands, if not hun…

> Israel lost the information/media war so damn badly that it may genuinely not recover from this

Israel probably came out ahead if all they lost is prestige.

They've neutered Iran and become the de facto regional security power. Their weapons and military have been validated, which makes than a desirable trading partner in an increasingly-militarising world. And they're turning into a gas exporter.

Worst case, a generational shift occurs and Israel loses its military support from America. (I don't see us sanctioning Israel any time soon, so its economic primacy will remain intact. And we only pay for like 15% of their military budget, so not a disaster.) Do you really think China and India would even hesitate to partner with Tel Aviv on defense?

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#627

Post by jameshilliard »

jayveeone wrote: post #606
A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #591

Israel's response to Oct 7th has been a major blackpill. Their strategy was, I think, as bad as it could possibly be. In fact, it really seemed, and still seems, like no strategy at all -- they lashed out wildly and extremely destructively, without a clear picture of what the post-war Gaza Strip will look like. Hamas successfully baited Israel into a disproportionate response that killed tens of thousands, if not hun…

[flagged]

> Their strategy is and has been for decades to kill as many Palestinians as possible.

This is just obviously false, Israel obviously has the military capability to kill effectively every Palestinian in Gaza, and yet they make significant efforts to prevent civilian casualties there.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#628

Post by JumpCrisscross »

babyshake wrote: post #615
ciconia wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The division is not about the starvation of Gaza. All Zionist parties in the Israeli parliament support the military campaign in Gaza. Apart from some lip-service from left-wing leaders, to my knowledge no Jewish leader has spoken against the starvation. Israeli media (except for Haaretz) have largely denied that there is a famine, and have called it a "propaganda campaign" by the Hamas.

My understanding is the defense made by Zionist parties is more that Hamas has culpability in the starvation. I haven't seen this claim verified or debunked sufficiently to have a strong opinion about it but it at least seems within reason to me that Hamas is acting in bad faith and is weaponizing starvation of Gaza residents.

> Hamas has culpability in the starvation

I mean, sure? Like, I'm sure Hamas stole like some food. At least once. Non-zero culpability.

Sort of irrelevant to the fact that most of the culpability lies with the guys withholding food from starving people.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#630

Post by anigbrowl »

stale2002 wrote: post #402
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's war initiated by Hamas Takes two to tango. Hamas started the war. Israel has continued it way past where it made sense. (No later than after Sinwar was killed.)

> way past where it made sense. If they don't destroy Hamas now, then a war will happen again in another 10 years. At which point 10s of thousands of palestinians will needlessly die, again. The only resolution to all of this, will happen when Hamas is completely disarmed and out of power. You can criticize how Israel goes about achieving that goal. But that goal is the only one that gets to a real, permanent peace.

Maybe they can set up another extremist party to undermine Hamas, lke how Netanyahu used Hamas to undermine the Palestinian Authority and draw off momentum from the prospect of a Palestinian state getting established.
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