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How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

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Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#591
Israel's response to Oct 7th has been a major blackpill.

Their strategy was, I think, as bad as it could possibly be. In fact, it really seemed, and still seems, like no strategy at all -- they lashed out wildly and extremely destructively, without a clear picture of what the post-war Gaza Strip will look like.

Hamas successfully baited Israel into a disproportionate response that killed tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, which played directly into the dynamics of guerrilla warfare where a strong state's extreme actions against a weak opponent undermine its legitimacy.

Walking into such a trap tends to be a real world-historical blunder for any nation.

Yet, rather than adapting, Israel's network doubled down with censorship campaigns, crackdowns on protests, and weaponizing "anti-semitism" accusations to silence critics -- actions that have all backfired. Now international support is collapsing, the EU is pushing sanctions, and the US is slowly distancing itself. Israel's best option right now is to end the war as quickly as possible, and devote all of its efforts to repairing damaged relationships and mitigating the war's effects, before isolation accelerates to the level of sanctions similar to those imposed on South Africa.

I'll also note that it's interesting how all sides seem to have lost. Hamas lost the shooting war, the people of Gaza have lost lives and livelihoods which may take more than a decade to rebuild, and Israel lost the information/media war so damn badly that it may genuinely not recover from this.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the "deal" is very one sided This is pretty much one should expect when one starts and loses a war, same as with the surrender of Nazi Germany and the Japanese at the end of WW2. > The current "peace deal" is terrible for the Palestinians. No other country would sign it either. It's a surrender agreement effectively, it's certainly not a peace deal amongst equal parties.

The indigenous people of Palestine did not start this conflict. They did not choose to be colonized by Jews fleeing persecution in Eastern Europe.

> The indigenous people of Palestine did not start this conflict.

These arguments are not particularly helpful because you can easily make the case for either side being the indigenous people depending on how far you want to go back in history.

> They did not choose to be colonized by Jews fleeing persecution in Eastern Europe.

At this point the majority of Israelis were born in Israel and hold no other citizenship, so if you're suggesting the Jews all go back to Europe that isn't a realistic expectation, also many Jews were forced out of other middle east countries shortly after the founding of Israel. You can make these same arguments about many countries like the United States or Canada as well as being colonies that pushed out their indigenous people, but these arguments are not going to be particularly productive as nobody is expecting these countries to return all land to their indigenous populations either. By the way these Jews fleeing Eastern Europe prior to Israeli independence were largely purchasing the land from Arab landowners which is arguably better than them haven taken the land by force.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People sometimes forget how bitterly divided Israel was before October 7th, with hundreds of thousands of people protesting in the streets. The war put some of the infighting on hold for a while, but all the former problems still exist, and the stakes are higher.

The division is not about the starvation of Gaza. All Zionist parties in the Israeli parliament support the military campaign in Gaza. Apart from some lip-service from left-wing leaders, to my knowledge no Jewish leader has spoken against the starvation. Israeli media (except for Haaretz) have largely denied that there is a famine, and have called it a "propaganda campaign" by the Hamas.

Honest question from someone whose knowledge of Israel's government isn't deep: does "Zionist parties" mean anything other than the parties which are not Arab parties? (are members of the Arab parties free to advocate against Zionism and Israel's status as a Jewish state?)

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Probably because Israel violated the ceasefire earlier this year (that was a sham from the beginning) that lasted from January to March. The first phase of the ceasefire saw an exchange of hostages, but then the Israelis refused to move on to the second phase and broke the ceasefire by bombing Gaza in the middle of the night, killing over 400 Palestinians in one day, including over 200 children. Israel has been rat…

>I suppose when attempting to negotiate the surrender of Hamas if the negotiators refuse to surrender after having clearly lost a war they started then eliminating the current negotiators may result in their replacements being more likely to capitulate. That's insane and not how you negotiate.

> That's insane not how you negotiate

So how exactly do you negotiate with genocidal terrorists that refuse to surrender despite having clearly lost a war? There certainly isn't an easy solution here.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#595
post #278

[flagged]

> Really, Israel? Maybe Israel started the war and keeping hostages too? um, yes? How many palestinian prisoners are they keeping without a trial?

> um, yes? How many palestinian prisoners are they keeping without a trial?

How many german prisoners were kept without trial during WWII?

Do you know the difference between prisoners and hostages?

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even Charlie Kirk, of all people, was talking about this (ignore the clickbait video title): https://youtu.be/3wUq3t9f6ug?si=nV_NukcsjHZgj0MT

Of all people?

Yes

https://youtube.com/shorts/nNfDr18C6H4?si=CKalCaG0DMUP3rZZ

This and my original comment apparently struck a nerve for some people, but I’m just sharing what I observe from the links I’ve included. I’d love to see some actual response to the content of these videos given Kirk’s apparent change of heart on Israel (especially if I’m off-base) as opposed to just downvotes with substance-free responses

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#597

Israel's response to Oct 7th has been a major blackpill. Their strategy was, I think, as bad as it could possibly be. In fact, it really seemed, and still seems, like no strategy at all -- they lashed out wildly and extremely destructively, without a clear picture of what the post-war Gaza Strip will look like. Hamas successfully baited Israel into a disproportionate response that killed tens of thousands, if not hun…

We can talk endlessly about strategy and long term implications (for example, the destruction of the Iranian "ring of fire" network of proxies, the permanent changes in Syria and Lebanon, etc), but consider something much more basic: Israelis around Gaza can finally live securely. There are no rockets coming from Gaza, no mortars, no chance of another October 7th or smaller incursions as long as the Israeli military is there. Israelis have peace. No Gazan rocket can disturb the life in Tel Aviv or Ashdod.

This couldn't and shouldn't have been a re-run of the countless previous clashes with Hamas. Israel needed to go all out to change the security situation, permanently.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#598

[flagged]

> Based on logical (to me) probabilities , both sides would be doing "Bad things”

This doesn’t make sense from a Bayesian perspective. Israel’s war capacity far outstrips anything Hamas can field by orders of magnitude in every metric.

Assigning the uninformative prior here requires a degree of ignorance that is not credible.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#600

UK surgeon Nick Maynard, a volunteer at Nasser Hospital, tells Good Morning Britain that he and other doctors tried to bring baby formula into Gaza and the Israelis confiscated it from them with no justification. [0] [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ipJEROtHOs

Would it be acceptable even with a justification?

Potentially.

The main ingredient in Hamas' rocket fuel is sugar. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_candy

That would be an acceptable justification for confiscating sugar. If Hamas were making rocket fuel somehow out of baby formula, then yes, that would be an acceptable justification.

That said baby formula cannot in fact be meaningfully used to make explosives, so this is not acceptable.

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