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How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

cnn.com

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Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#581

Post by wredcoll »

dirtikiti wrote: post #556
softwaredoug wrote: post #479

I've heard it said by eliminating all other avenues of Palestinian political expression, Netanyahu created modern Hamas. He undermined the two-state solution and Palestinian Authority. When you do this, you back people into a corner. There's no path to peacefully making progress on anything you care about. It also conveniently gives Netanyahu a boogeyman for his own political ends. You might argue the PA was corrupt,…

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> Funny how literally every written record of history agrees the Jews are the people of Israel, but the Arabs don't.

Why do people keep bringing this up as if it matters? Every piece of land has had someone living on it for the last 10,000 years, how does it matter that some group lived there in like 500 bce then a jewish tribe came in and then later some other tribe came in and so on.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#582

Post by wredcoll »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #561
softwaredoug wrote: post #479

I've heard it said by eliminating all other avenues of Palestinian political expression, Netanyahu created modern Hamas. He undermined the two-state solution and Palestinian Authority. When you do this, you back people into a corner. There's no path to peacefully making progress on anything you care about. It also conveniently gives Netanyahu a boogeyman for his own political ends. You might argue the PA was corrupt,…

> There's no path to peacefully making progress on anything you care about Would note that there is a huge divide between violent resistance and terrorism, same as there is between counter-insurgency and war crimes.

> huge divide between violent resistance and terrorism,

There... is? Really?

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#583

Post by jameshilliard »

doom2 wrote: post #530
jameshilliard wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the "deal" is very one sided This is pretty much one should expect when one starts and loses a war, same as with the surrender of Nazi Germany and the Japanese at the end of WW2. > The current "peace deal" is terrible for the Palestinians. No other country would sign it either. It's a surrender agreement effectively, it's certainly not a peace deal amongst equal parties.

Germany and Japan also got to keep their countries in the end. What guarantees do the Palestinians have that they'll get to keep Gaza and not have it be overrun by Israeli settlers (who are already wreaking havoc in the West Bank)?

> Germany and Japan also got to keep their countries in the end.

Germany was split in two for many years. Ultimately they were able to keep their countries because the occupation forces were successfully able to largely de-radicalize those countries.

> What guarantees do the Palestinians have that they'll get to keep Gaza and not have it be overrun by Israeli settlers (who are already wreaking havoc in the West Bank)?

I suppose that would depend on the surrender agreement and whatever agreements are subsequently put in place, but the settler issue differs significantly between Gaza and the West Bank for various reasons. For example the issue of religious sites is a much bigger issue in the West Bank, there has been little desire amongst Israelis to settle Gaza compared to the West Bank. The security issues in the West Bank tend to also be more problematic due to proximity to major Israeli cities.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#584

Post by wredcoll »

machina_ex_deus wrote: post #579
lern_too_spel wrote: post #558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There Palestinians simply preferred hamas and terrorism over the PLO.... They need to commit to non violence between themselves before it's possible to commit to non violence with their enemies. Hamas won 44% of the vote and then, as you noted, they murdered their political opposition. For this, everybody in Gaza should suffer both under a terrorist group running their lives and Israel bombing them?

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> That's wrong question because there was no other option than to get rid of Hitler, and there is no other option than to get rid of hamas.

I feel like there might, in fact, be other ways to do that.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#585

Post by teachrdan »

bamboozled wrote: post #523
softwaredoug wrote: post #479

I've heard it said by eliminating all other avenues of Palestinian political expression, Netanyahu created modern Hamas. He undermined the two-state solution and Palestinian Authority. When you do this, you back people into a corner. There's no path to peacefully making progress on anything you care about. It also conveniently gives Netanyahu a boogeyman for his own political ends. You might argue the PA was corrupt,…

I feel like you could say Ukraine were backed into a corner, multiple times, they didn't resort to October 7 levels of horror either. In fact, there is not a single documented case where they have attacked civilians or civilian infrastructure. So while I'm not closed to the idea that Netanyahu is a bad man. I find it hard to rationalize the actions of the people who were "backed into a corner"?

> Ukraine were backed into a corner, multiple times, they didn't resort to October 7 levels of horror either

While I personally condemn Hamas's tactics and don't recognize their political legitimacy, Ukraine has billions in modern military equipment, including tanks and fighter planes. They have conventional military options Palestinians could only dream of.

Ukraine has also been supplied with intelligence, weapons and materiel from other countries in Europe, with which they also share land borders, as well as the United States. Palestinians can't even get food from Egypt, their immediate neighbor.

> there is not a single documented case where they [Ukraine] have attacked civilians or civilian infrastructure.

It must further be observed that Israel has likely killed over 100,000 civilians and miles of civilian infrastructure, even as they enjoy the upper hand economically and militarily. Whatever damage Hamas has done to Israel, Israel has retaliated far out of proportion to Palestinian civilians, in a way that is judged calculated to be genocidal.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#586

Post by ashirusnw »

lejalv wrote: post #246
jameshilliard wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And this didn't start in 2023. Gaza has been under Israeli blockade for decades. The blockade was also imposed by Egypt[0] and Hamas certainly provided no shortage of security related justifications for the blockade. Unfortunately those security concerns turned out to be accurate[1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_7_attacks

Unfortunately Netanyahu actively encouraged Qatar to send cash to Hamas. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_support_for_Hamas > In February 2020, former Mossad Director Yossi Cohen and Israeli general Herzi Halevi, under Netanyahu's orders, went to Qatar to plead Qatari officials to continue the payments for Hamas.[8] Later, in September 2023, David Barnea, the Director of Mossad since 2021, went to Qatar to meet…

It wasn't just him, all the governments for the last decade tried to keep the peace while enforcing the blockage but allowing cash for salaries, humanitarian aid etc which made Gaza flourish with hotels, restaurants, beach resorts and high end shopping (see the videos). All no longer :(

A few months prior to October 7th, Natenyahu had allowed the highest number of work visas for Gazans to work in Israel proper. They genuinely thought economic prosperity would bring an slowdown and eventual end to terrorism. Now try and find Israelis who support the idea of 10s of 1000s Palestinians cruising the borders for work each day - thanks to Oct 7th.

Doesn't quite fit the narrative you want to portray, does it?

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#587

Post by danielheath »

dirtikiti wrote: post #556
softwaredoug wrote: post #479

I've heard it said by eliminating all other avenues of Palestinian political expression, Netanyahu created modern Hamas. He undermined the two-state solution and Palestinian Authority. When you do this, you back people into a corner. There's no path to peacefully making progress on anything you care about. It also conveniently gives Netanyahu a boogeyman for his own political ends. You might argue the PA was corrupt,…

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Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#588

Post by tdeck »

yibg wrote: post #290

It's wild to me how many people here use the "it's war, bad things happen" to justify the situation. Weird that it needs to be said, but this is why war crimes are a thing. Just because it's an armed conflict, doesn't mean anything goes.

This is a typical line used by those committing a genocide, it's not unique to this one. Turkey claims the same thing about the Armenian genocide.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#589

Post by netsharc »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #394
RobertoG wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really believe that this have anything to do with the hostages? They want the land, that's it. It could be done little by little or it could be done like now, when they have an excuse. But the end goal is the same. Do you think that what they are doing in the west-bank have anything to do with the hostages or Hamas?

> Do you really believe that this have anything to do with the hostages? To a significant degree, yes. If Hamas turned over the hostages today, Israel's position would significantly weaken. Palestinians' would strength. But so would Hamas', which is why they haven't.

Man, in a scenario where all the hostages are freed, I can't image Netanyahu stopping the genocide... so far he's been "Well, what are you going to do about it?!" about all the war crimes and killings, I would bet my left nut he'd continue the bombings even if all the hostages are returned. It's too easy to say the terrorist want to annihilate Israel (and so, Israel being a rules-abiding civilized democracy, must annihilate the Palestinian state first - terrorists, civilians, all the same...).

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#590

Post by typpilol »

wredcoll wrote: post #581
dirtikiti wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Funny how literally every written record of history agrees the Jews are the people of Israel, but the Arabs don't. Why do people keep bringing this up as if it matters? Every piece of land has had someone living on it for the last 10,000 years, how does it matter that some group lived there in like 500 bce then a jewish tribe came in and then later some other tribe came in and so on.

Because it's literally the only Jewish land/state.

Think of how many Arab states exist.

Now think of how many Jewish states exist.

Israel is literally the only claim to land Jews have. Have you seen the size of Israel? It's not exactly gigantic

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