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How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

cnn.com

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Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#471

Post by HDThoreaun »

istjohn wrote: post #400
jameshilliard wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the "deal" is very one sided This is pretty much one should expect when one starts and loses a war, same as with the surrender of Nazi Germany and the Japanese at the end of WW2. > The current "peace deal" is terrible for the Palestinians. No other country would sign it either. It's a surrender agreement effectively, it's certainly not a peace deal amongst equal parties.

The indigenous people of Palestine did not start this conflict. They did not choose to be colonized by Jews fleeing persecution in Eastern Europe.

Yes they did. The jews were ready to accept the UN plan in 47. If the palestinains agreed the nakba would have been the end of this conflict. Instead the Palestinians chose governments that attacked israel. Even when Israel left gaza after the second intifada the gazans continued to launch rockets at tel aviv.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#472

Post by jijijijij »

crikeykangaroo wrote: post #230

This genocide reveals how much Israel truly controls the US government and other Western countries. I am beyond appalled this is allowed to happen. The last couple of months also showed that international rules and agreements don't mean anything - they are in fact only there to please the Western countries, until they throw it in the bin when it is convenient to them.

[flagged]

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#473

Post by RobertoG »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #430
RobertoG wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really believe that this have anything to do with the hostages? They want the land, that's it. It could be done little by little or it could be done like now, when they have an excuse. But the end goal is the same. Do you think that what they are doing in the west-bank have anything to do with the hostages or Hamas?

Israel does not want gaza. They want the west bank. Gaza is worthless land, they just want the gazans gone.

so, they want the people that it's there now gone, and the control of that territory, but they don't want Gaza.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#474

Post by phgn »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #462
chollida1 wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't believe I'm weighing in on a political thread, but the "deal" is very one sided. It offers very little for the Palestinians in terms of creating their own country and ability to self govern and gives Israel pretty much everything they want including some control over Palestine. The current "peace deal" is terrible for the Palestinians. No other country would sign it either.

Well the palestinians shouldnt have launched a terrorist attack if they wanted a good deal. Now their choices are bad deal or genocide

This is not how international law is supposed to work.

Nothing justifies a genocide.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#476

Post by Dylan16807 »

ngruhn wrote: post #421
ipaddr wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have something to counter the logical narrative or just an eye brow raise? If that's all you have to offer I'll raise you two eye brow raises.

[flagged]

Considering factors like different countries having different populations, "most efficient" has very little to do with the raw number of people starving.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#477

Post by phgn »

jiggawatts wrote: post #461
jameshilliard wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Killing 736 Israeli civilians, 79 foreign nationals, and 379 Israeli military and security personnel, and kidnapping an additional 250 civilians is not, by any fathomable definition, genocide. It is a war crime for sure, but it's not genocide. I think the evidence is quite overwhelming that Hamas had clear genocidal intent, even if they did not have the means to accomplish that intent.

Something I try to explain to people is that HAMAS tries to kill civilians, but fails at achieving their goals, meanwhile Israel tries to avoid killing civilians, but fails to achieve that goal. One of these is better than the other. Weirdly, many people disagree over which one that is.

> Israel tries to avoid killing civilians

Did you read the article this discussion is about?

How could one cause a famine accidentally, without intent to murder civilians?

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#478

Post by BJones12 »

wat10000 wrote: post #346
BJones12 wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitions matter. It's possible for an organization to redefine "acutely malnourished" as less than 4000 Cal/day, and then use that to make an accusation. Is that reasonable? No, because that does not match reality. It's unreasonable to criticize pushback on changing definitions because definitions should be pushed toward reality.

Does this particular (supposed) definition change matter here ? Because if it doesn't, pushback by the aggressor is heinous and obviously disingenuous even if your abstract love of accuracy means you happen to agree with the objection.

From my understanding there is an argument about whether 12% or 16% of children meet a certain threshold of food availability, which affects whether or not it is called a famine. One is regarded as not a famine, one is regarded as a famine, and there is argument over what data to use.

And the definition does matter, because 'famine' has the meaning of a certain level of bad thing happening. If we do not preserve the meaning, then the word will not have a meaning, then we have no more word to talk about that bad thing, so we will pay no attention to averting or fixing the bad thing because we don't have the literal ability to talk about it.

I'm in favor of being able to have a productive discussion about famines and how to avoid them, so I'm in favor of having a word for 'famine' with a clearly defined meaning.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#479

Post by softwaredoug »

I've heard it said by eliminating all other avenues of Palestinian political expression, Netanyahu created modern Hamas.

He undermined the two-state solution and Palestinian Authority. When you do this, you back people into a corner. There's no path to peacefully making progress on anything you care about. It also conveniently gives Netanyahu a boogeyman for his own political ends.

You might argue the PA was corrupt, etc. But that status quo was far better than what exists now.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#480

Post by danielbenzvi1 »

fergie wrote: post #15
iberator wrote: post #2

Reminder: Only right wing supporters of Iaraeli Likud party actually support genocide going on. Literally half of Israeli citizens hate Likud and Natanyahu. ps. Interesting trivia: Mahmoud Abbas (President of the Palestinian West Bank) and FATAH militia also are against Hamas. They always have been: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah%E2%80%93Hamas_conflict Nothing is black or white.

Moderate Israelis are the only people who have the power to peacefully defuse the situation.

Moderates in Israel have shrunk because for decades, every attempt at compromise seemed to end in more violence rather than peace. From the Oslo years and the Second Intifada, to the Gaza withdrawal and repeated rocket wars, many Israelis came to believe that “giving ground” only brought terror closer to their homes. The sense is that moderation was tried, failed, and cost lives.

On top of that, politics and demographics shifted rightward, and October 7th reinforced the belief that peace is not realistic in the near term. For many Israelis, moderation no longer feels like a safe or responsible option- it feels like a risk their families can’t afford.

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