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I only use Google Sheets

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Re: I only use Google Sheets

#261

Post by smj-edison »

ikaros02 wrote: post #19
mft_ wrote: post #18

I've long argued that spreadsheets are essentially a structured programming tool for people that would never imagine they could or would program. And maybe even a gateway drug in a proportion of cases?

Mary Shaw discusses spreadsheets as an example of vernacular programming in a paper I read: https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/3480947

Huh, this is a really fascinating article! I really like how she articulates common myths in software development. However, it feels like her remarks are more targeted at the academic CS community, because I think a lot of her critiques (such as lack of integration thinking) are already internalized by project leads of modern software systems.

Re: I only use Google Sheets

#262

Post by Too »

GuB-42 wrote: post #67
Aachen wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I keep telling people to make backups of "cloud" services ever since Grooveshark died from one day to the next Maybe Spotify won't be taken down overnight, but they can lock me out for various reasons such as misdetecting an IP address (Google wouldn't let me log in at all when they thought I was in Russia, when I was at 31C3 in Hamburg, Germany, a conference where they afaik use some temporary IP space — I don't kno…

> I keep telling people to make backups of "cloud" services The usual rule when making backups is that you need 3 copies, one of them offsite. A cloud storage service counts as an offsite copy, but you still need two more, typically one on your computer and one in cold storage (ex: external hard drive). Treat cloud storage like you treat your hard drive, it can fail at any time. The failure modes are different: mecha…

Good advice. Though I’d say you can count the cloud storage as 2 copies. They typically replicate the data to three drives, that covers all the typical failure modes you’d normally get when running a drive yourself. Then with a simple click you can even get a replica in another region.

The third backup being in a decoupled system on site is what you now count as your ”offsite” backup. Having this last copy is non-negotiable, no matter how many 9s S3 claim to have.

Re: I only use Google Sheets

#263

Post by dcminter »

michaelteter wrote: post #250
dcminter wrote: post #204

> I entered the workforce about 9 months ago Right or wrong, it takes a certain amount of chutzpah to put forth such a definite opinion after less than a year in the workforce. What OP probably misses is the "there ain't nothing so permanent as a temporary solution" thing. I too embrace quick and dirty solutions but only if I have total control over the lifetime of that solution. If someone's going to ask me to deliv…

I particularly enjoyed the “every couple of months…” bit. So, about four times?

'zactly :D I don't want to be too harsh though; I definitely think the attitude of rolling out something simple that works is a solid approach when compared with the gold-plated second-system-syndrome thinking that's terribly easy to fall into. They're not wrong wrong, but there's a bit more nuance to be had once you've seen the monsters that can grown out of a hasty prototype.

Re: I only use Google Sheets

#264

Post by ebbi »

niam wrote: post #42

I'll die on this hill. Google Sheets was phenomenal for prototyping apps and getting quick feedback from users back when I used it in 2015-2020. Back then they had this janky implementation of Mozilla Rhino underpinning their "Apps Script" engine and it still beat the pants off of anything else you could use for free. Certainly you can shoot your feet with the various spreadsheet-isms but if you're diligent about kee…

Exactly this. Worked for a startup that had dogmatic leaders on 'using the best tool' 'spreadsheets are bad' (a trope they just got from people, not having used it themselves). Ended up spending thousands on consultants to build reporting etc that ended up needing to be changed after 6 months because of business/personnel changes.

Spreadsheets are the best tool to quickly spin up and make changes to data.

I've always thought about a tool to make a 'front-end' version of spreadsheets that end users use, where the layout can be a bit more freeform (i.e. build reports and dashboards in spreadsheet, then 'select' these reports and paste them into a front end WYSIWYG tool).

Re: I only use Google Sheets

#265

Post by encloser »

gregates wrote: post #209
immibis wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feels a bit like the no-code paradox though. When you make a sufficiently advanced no-code (or no-database) tool it becomes equivalent to code (or a database) and even though it does entice a novice to start using it, a complex system made in it is still complex code (or a complex database) and ends up requiring a competent programmer (or db admin) to maintain it, who wishes it was written the normal way to begin wit…

I have no doubt that the stories of complex spreadsheet models as the beating heart of a business are true. But those models are likely the sole survivor from a thousand dead and gone spreadsheets that people extracted value from for a time, but just didn't have the ongoing utility or wide enough audience to merit being turned into a dashboard or web app. It would be a mistake to insist that all of those spreadsheets…

> It would be a mistake to insist that all of those spreadsheets should have started life as something else, just in case maintenance should someday become necessary.

The problem corporate IT/Dev folks face isn't that an idea started as a low-code tool, but rather that the low-code solution is often dumped on them with no budget or desire to improve it to be more reliable and maintainable.

At least until something fails... and usually in dramatic fashion that then wakes leadership up to the idea that maybe we should invest more into this critical business process. If the company didn't go under in the meantime.

Re: I only use Google Sheets

#266

Post by giancarlostoro »

gregates wrote: post #172
thesuitonym wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another oft overlooked point is that anti-spreadsheet people aren't actually against using spreadsheets, we just want our coworkers to stop placing mission critical operations in an enormous, half-baked spreadsheet that exists only in some long-since retired users home directory.

As someone who has been to multiple trade shows to show off our own spreadsheet product that solves some of these problems ( https://rowzero.io/home ), I can tell you there are a bunch of data engineers and their managers who have a visceral hatred of spreadsheets but have trouble articulating any reason for it.

Imagine if people used Emacs the way they use Spreadsheets. "Hey I made a way to simplify our workflow, it has forms, buttons, gizmos we need" then you go to their desk, and its some custom Elisp abomination. I have to imagine this is how most people who hate spreadsheets see them. It still works, but it's a quirky solution.

Also I remember Row Zero the demo on your home page was impressive. You guys were S3 engineers too, good to know your project took off. :)

Re: I only use Google Sheets

#267

Post by Terr_ »

gregates wrote: post #172
thesuitonym wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another oft overlooked point is that anti-spreadsheet people aren't actually against using spreadsheets, we just want our coworkers to stop placing mission critical operations in an enormous, half-baked spreadsheet that exists only in some long-since retired users home directory.

As someone who has been to multiple trade shows to show off our own spreadsheet product that solves some of these problems ( https://rowzero.io/home ), I can tell you there are a bunch of data engineers and their managers who have a visceral hatred of spreadsheets but have trouble articulating any reason for it.

> but have trouble articulating

I imagine that's because it's not really a technical problem, but an issue with how the whole organization (mis)handles complexity, and we collectively [1] still struggle to model/name a lot of those problems.

[1] Yeah yeah, I see you there in the back, you excited cyberneticist bubbling with enthusiasm to share... but I mean as a practical widespread matter.

Re: I only use Google Sheets

#268

Post by Lu2025 »

corry wrote: post #59

Always overlooked point in these pro/anti-spreadsheet discussions: A spreadsheet gives you a DB, a quickly and easily customized UI, and iterative / easy-to-debug data processing all in a package that everyone in the working world already understands. AND with a freedom that allows the creator to do it however they want. AND it's fairly portable. You can build incredible things in spreadsheets. I remain convinced tha…

Right? Spreadsheets have such a low barrier of entry. I use Google Sheets in a middle of a farm field to enter plant growing records on my cell phone. I don't even have good reception at times so the sheets are in offline mode; they'll synch when I get back to the house. Crappy, crummy records are oftentimes better than no records. Farming is data-heavy and data-starved at the same. A learning cycle is a year, and one year is not like the other one.

Re: I only use Google Sheets

#269

Post by asdff »

sjw987 wrote: post #34
TrackerFF wrote: post #22

One thing I've learned: Never ( ever ) make yourself reliant/dependent on Google products. If you do get banned / locked out, it is the most AI-Kafkaesque process imaginable to regain access. And you could stay locked out for years. I use Google sheets myself from time to time, but I regularly do backups of the sheets I'm working on, or anything important I have access to. I've been in the hole before, for reasons I…

I can't tell whether I'm being super paranoid but I've been burned by Google so many times on product sunsets that I've just removed all of my data from them. I managed to set up private self-hosted versions of an email client, photo viewing app, and barebones alternative to Docs and Sheets. Switched from Google to Kagi, and Chrome to Brave, but generally keep my own bookmarks of sites to use rather than using search…

Why Brave over Firefox?

Re: I only use Google Sheets

#270

Post by asdff »

floundy wrote: post #68
sjw987 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't tell whether I'm being super paranoid but I've been burned by Google so many times on product sunsets that I've just removed all of my data from them. I managed to set up private self-hosted versions of an email client, photo viewing app, and barebones alternative to Docs and Sheets. Switched from Google to Kagi, and Chrome to Brave, but generally keep my own bookmarks of sites to use rather than using search…

I'm working on De-Googling. I now have a Mac and an iPhone instead of Windows/Android, but switching from Drive to iCloud seems a fairly parallel move. I also set up my first home server with RAID NAS. It's on my list to spin up an OpenOffice container or something I can use to replace Google Sheets. That will let me delete my Drive data; next is Google Photos and eventually Gmail.

Is your home server LAN only or have you configured it in some way to be accessible and secure on the internet? I'm interested in setting up a fileserver myself but I'm not sure what the latest is on security.
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