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UK Petition: Do not introduce Digital ID cards

petition.parliament.uk

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Re: UK Petition: Do not introduce Digital ID cards

#81

Post by dijit »

raesene9 wrote: post #16
dijit wrote: post #3

As well as the Estonia eID system works (aside from that time it got hacked[0] and that other time they leaked all the photos[1]) and how well a digital (non-government) system works in Scandinavia… I have to say… As a Dual British/Swedish Citizen, I really do not trust the UK government. They have proven over and over and over, that at every opportunity presented they will increase their own authority. I don’t belie…

The thing is, to me, the powers of the government to require more identification for different things is orthogonal to the idea of digital ID. We already have to identify ourselves in a variety of circumstances (e.g. mortgages, bank accounts, voting, using "adult" websites etc), and the gov. can get the information from various third parties on demand already. Implementing those requirements didn't depend on there be…

I would really agree with you, as a person who was born into the underclass I know full well the barrier to entry of getting a “first person in the family” passport and a drivers license has somehow lower hurdles (but those are well known).

However, as mentioned, I can’t in good faith argue for the government to have an easier time categorising people. Such a system is so ripe for abuse. I have even advocated for it based on the Estonian eID system and the Swedish BankID (though I am aware of Danish and Norwegian BankID- I never used those).

I’m still fully convinced that the British “Online Safety Bill” is actually a ploy to ensure that they have linked accounts to identity on any site where comments can be made; so they can prosecute people for expressing opinions[0]. Why else go for Wikipedia, and why else focus on sites with public commentary. You can’t say it’s to prevent pedophiles when with the right hand you imprison people for saying things online while with the left hand releasing actual pedophiles into society[1]

To be fair, they did say it wasn’t primarily about protecting children[2], but then I guess I should figure out what else the OSA is for.

[0]: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-10-2025-0022...

[1]: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/prisoners-ear... & https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ce80nl1k0p3o

[2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44910285

Re: UK Petition: Do not introduce Digital ID cards

#82

Post by raesene9 »

Barrin92 wrote: post #74
raesene9 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Put it this way, the UK managed to get through the troubles, which had a lot of events far more serious than what Palestine action have done, without needing this level of policing of free speech. The point I was making is that successive UK gov's are tending towards authoritarianism, the current one included.

If you're trying to convince Brits not to enact these policies "you guys made it through The Troubles" is a really bad argument unless you're very unfamiliar with the body count and terror and the public perception of that period in British history. (it included some fifty thousand casualties and sixteen thousand bombings) An advocate of these policies would quite literally argue that not getting into something like…

Can't say as I agree there. I was in the UK at the time (lived here all my life) and I'm fairly familiar with the horrors of the time.

My point is we were able to get through something like that, which was very serious, without needing to proscribe free speech in the way that's being done now for some people putting paint on planes.

So if we didn't need it for something that serious, we don't need it for this.

Re: UK Petition: Do not introduce Digital ID cards

#83

Post by raesene9 »

dijit wrote: post #81
raesene9 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, to me, the powers of the government to require more identification for different things is orthogonal to the idea of digital ID. We already have to identify ourselves in a variety of circumstances (e.g. mortgages, bank accounts, voting, using "adult" websites etc), and the gov. can get the information from various third parties on demand already. Implementing those requirements didn't depend on there be…

I would really agree with you, as a person who was born into the underclass I know full well the barrier to entry of getting a “first person in the family” passport and a drivers license has somehow lower hurdles (but those are well known). However, as mentioned, I can’t in good faith argue for the government to have an easier time categorising people. Such a system is so ripe for abuse. I have even advocated for it…

The online safety act is a terrible piece of legislation, along with a variety of other ones promoted as being for "child safety" but having serious external consequences.

But they implemented that act, without needing a digital ID. I don't think they need a digital ID to push authoritarian policies.

And I think a digital ID has possible benefits for people who can't easily fit in to current setups, thus my point about it being orthogonal.

Re: UK Petition: Do not introduce Digital ID cards

#84

Post by oncallthrow »

n4r9 wrote: post #5
SilverElfin wrote: post #2

After seeing NUMEROUS video of UK police showing up at doorsteps like the gestapo, arresting or citing or intimidating people who are simply practicing free speech, I don’t think anyone should support the government with a pathway to de-anonymize the web. Even if you support the current government, such powers will be used against you at some point.

I wonder how much you're loading into "simply practicing free speech".

In many cases the “free speech” genuinely is racial hatred bordering on incitement.

But on the other hand there genuinely have been many people arrested (and in some cases convicted) under these laws for statements that are shockingly milquetoast.

Re: UK Petition: Do not introduce Digital ID cards

#85

Post by raesene9 »

Arch-TK wrote: post #73
raesene9 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TBH the mobile duopoly isn't a problem specific to the UK gov, and plenty of the systems already in use which have a mobile component already have that dependency, so I don't think it really gets any worse if you had a digital ID. Indeed if done with physical smart card + reader, it would reduce the requirement for mobile devices, allowing for people unhappy with their presence to avoid them :)

I currently live in the UK, and I am not significantly restricted from anything (banking, ISAs, investments, healthcare, etc) for refusing to use a Google approved build of Android. Moreover, I actually on principle refuse to make myself dependant on my phone for these things, which means that (at a small convenience cost) I don't have any banking apps, or investment apps, or healthcare apps, or whatever). My phone i…

Oh I agree a system, if implemented, should not depend on a tie to Apple or Google, however, I'm not aware that detailed implementation guidance has been produced as yet which would require that tie, although I could have missed that.

I'd hope that a system as implemented is as technologically neutral as possible.

Good on you for avoiding the smartphone tie on banking though, it's getting increasingly hard for decent MFA not to tie to it in some way or another, and travel's a right pain without the smartphone apps.

Re: UK Petition: Do not introduce Digital ID cards

#86

Post by dijit »

skeletal88 wrote: post #80
dijit wrote: post #3

As well as the Estonia eID system works (aside from that time it got hacked[0] and that other time they leaked all the photos[1]) and how well a digital (non-government) system works in Scandinavia… I have to say… As a Dual British/Swedish Citizen, I really do not trust the UK government. They have proven over and over and over, that at every opportunity presented they will increase their own authority. I don’t belie…

Our system in Estonia works well. I don't get the resistance to a digital/national id in other countries. To us it is quite bizarre. Some have explained it with a lack of trust between citizens and the country. But without such digital id it is impossible to have such digital government services as we have here. The government services need to verify and autheticate the citizen, so they only access their own data and…

Just like Britons can’t imagine Estonia, I know you can’t imagine Britain.

In the UK there’s a bunch of government and company databases, and coalescing them isn’t just hard, in some cases it’s not even possible.

You can ask a company for specific details on a person, and they can make a “reasonable effort” to get the data. But if they mishandle the request (maybe your name has accents?) then the government gets no information.

The easier it gets, the easier it can be for them to excercise power over you, and right now there’s sufficient reason to be worried about that. The current government is liberally using the fascistic powers that the previous government created.

Re: UK Petition: Do not introduce Digital ID cards

#87

Post by Fade_Dance »

skeletal88 wrote: post #80
dijit wrote: post #3

As well as the Estonia eID system works (aside from that time it got hacked[0] and that other time they leaked all the photos[1]) and how well a digital (non-government) system works in Scandinavia… I have to say… As a Dual British/Swedish Citizen, I really do not trust the UK government. They have proven over and over and over, that at every opportunity presented they will increase their own authority. I don’t belie…

Our system in Estonia works well. I don't get the resistance to a digital/national id in other countries. To us it is quite bizarre. Some have explained it with a lack of trust between citizens and the country. But without such digital id it is impossible to have such digital government services as we have here. The government services need to verify and autheticate the citizen, so they only access their own data and…

In the US we use a short number written on a paper card - social security numbers. It's a huge source of compromised security on every level from government services to corporate to personal data security.

Re: UK Petition: Do not introduce Digital ID cards

#88

Post by dijit »

raesene9 wrote: post #83
dijit wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would really agree with you, as a person who was born into the underclass I know full well the barrier to entry of getting a “first person in the family” passport and a drivers license has somehow lower hurdles (but those are well known). However, as mentioned, I can’t in good faith argue for the government to have an easier time categorising people. Such a system is so ripe for abuse. I have even advocated for it…

The online safety act is a terrible piece of legislation, along with a variety of other ones promoted as being for "child safety" but having serious external consequences. But they implemented that act, without needing a digital ID. I don't think they need a digital ID to push authoritarian policies. And I think a digital ID has possible benefits for people who can't easily fit in to current setups, thus my point abo…

The Digital ID will make it so that there’s no excuse for not connecting your identity to everything you do.

Re: UK Petition: Do not introduce Digital ID cards

#89

Post by reorder9695 »

skeletal88 wrote: post #80
dijit wrote: post #3

As well as the Estonia eID system works (aside from that time it got hacked[0] and that other time they leaked all the photos[1]) and how well a digital (non-government) system works in Scandinavia… I have to say… As a Dual British/Swedish Citizen, I really do not trust the UK government. They have proven over and over and over, that at every opportunity presented they will increase their own authority. I don’t belie…

Our system in Estonia works well. I don't get the resistance to a digital/national id in other countries. To us it is quite bizarre. Some have explained it with a lack of trust between citizens and the country. But without such digital id it is impossible to have such digital government services as we have here. The government services need to verify and autheticate the citizen, so they only access their own data and…

The UK government has justified this with reducing the amount of illegal workers. To work legally currently you need an NI number, this is not an improvement on that system other than requiring everyone to have a phone (probably with safetynet checks to ensure it can't be running a custom rom).

I personally do not trust the government one little bit and am sure they'll find some way to abuse this, as they have just about everything else they do at this point. This possibly sounds far fetched, but why couldn't they ask for GPS permissions on the app then use it to quickly find out who was at a pro Palestine protest for example given their recent penchant for arresting protesters?

They have given us no reason to believe things will improve with it's introduction, and have given us plenty of reasons to believe it will be abused. It's almost perfect for that, "install our software on the device you have most places you go, or you can't earn a living anymore".

Re: UK Petition: Do not introduce Digital ID cards

#90

Post by armchairhacker »

Is there a technological way to make an ID that's anonymous and irrevocable (since arguably people should never lose citizenship)? Because digital, national ID has major benefits (prevents fraud, reduces paperwork), but yeah, those are IMO larger drawbacks.
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