Live data from Hacker News

Learn to play Go

online-go.com

121–130 of 159 posts

Re: Learn to play Go

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blitz format is reasonably popular on KGS (once you get to a certain level) usually 10+0. Blitz is harder to find on Pandanet - but you can easily blitz on Fox.

Zero increment blitz go is a terrible idea IMX; people will just play nonsense moves after the game should be ended, and calling a moderator takes time. Go lacks the absolute nature of checkmate.

http://online-go.com has an interesting anti-stalling feature: If you pass several times it checks with KataGo. If KataGo is 99% sure you will win, either player can click a button to accept that result and end the game.

Re: Learn to play Go

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like go and don't like chess, for the simple reason that getting good at chess requires a lot of memorization, while getting good at go doesn't. Having lots of openings and positions memorized to know the best moves automatically is not something that I personally find fun. In go there are some sequences of "standard" moves (joseki) but it's highly controversial whether memorizing them even helps at all, see anothe…

Opening knowledge in chess is almost entirely unnecessary below a rather high level, perhaps 2200+. The reason less experienced players get obsessed with openings is because they make regular tactical mistakes in the opening, and then blame lack of opening knowledge, as opposed to their lack of tactical ability. In other words they try to memorize their way out of tactical mistakes, which is impossible. At that point…

I think it's imprecise to say that opening knowledge is unnecessary. What is unnecessary is opening theory, or more specifically, rote memorisation of opening lines.

This is different from opening understanding. Understanding the importance of tempo, development, controlling the centre, the different pawn structures, middle games and endgames that result from different openings, the plans and motifs typical in various opening complexes. Any late beginner to intermediate player needs to pick and study an opening. The problem is that instead of studying the opening, players try to memorise lines without improving their understanding of the resulting middlegames, and the plans they should be playing for. Then, when their opponent diverges from the main lines(which in my experience happens in 99% of games between players below 2000, because it's very rare that both players have memorised the same long line), they don't know what to do.

I'm a 1900 FIDE player, I have an opening repertoire of sorts. For instance I play the modern benoni with black. An extremely theoretical opening, and yet I have only a small handful of longer lines actually memorised, because they're simply too complex for me to figure out over the board(e.g the b5 lines against Bd3 h3 Nf3 setups). But what I have studied extensively is the strategic landscape of the benoni, games by strong players in the opening, etc. And I have years of experience playing the opening. I know what kind of exchanges typically favour me, or my opponent, what pawn breaks each player should be trying for. And all of that knowledge is crucial for me to get anything out of the opening. I have beaten players tactically much stronger than me in this opening simply because my understanding of this specific opening was better than theirs.

Tactical ability is obviously important, but it's definitely not everything.

Re: Learn to play Go

#123
I love Go! Been streaming it on Twitch for the last five years or so (https://twitch.tv/mirthturtle), lately as a "Go airline" (MS Flight Simulator & Go simultaneously). There is an engaged community in the Twitch category, if you are looking for Go friends, but still, nowhere near as large as Chess.

Re: Learn to play Go

#124
My son and I just did the first collection of lessons. The Swedish translation isn't perfect, but he understood and enjoyed it immensely. Well done, I might have to buy a board now :)

Re: Learn to play Go

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not supposed to be stateful. The ko rule is only there to block infinite loops.

What I mean is you can’t just look at a board and know the ko “state” - but yes I’m sure in practice it’s not that important. Just my engineering brain picking up on it.

Chess also has this "problem" thanks to rules like castling and en passant capture.

Re: Learn to play Go

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Look at this puzzle. WTF is this? > The "stretch" ("correct move" according to this tutorial) seems wholly inappropriate compared to 1-point jump, horse-move, diagonal move .... or hell just running in the other direction (to the right, escaping towards the center). The stretch is good shape here. I can't even tell which keima[0] you have in mind but that makes no sense here. A diagonal also just looks strange, unl…

Well, I appreciate the discussion in any case. I'll review the position more. But this kind of discussion is missing from the tutorial in any regards. This is where I believe I'm stuck in the ~9kyu level and feel like its been mostly about this middle-game movement / direction of play stuff since 15kyu or so.

> This is where I believe I'm stuck in the ~9kyu level and feel like its been mostly about this middle-game movement / direction of play stuff since 15kyu or so.

Sure. But you put in the effort to get that far. You can't just put everything in the beginner tutorial. They'll get confused. And there's only so far you can go with one-size-fits-all lessons, without feedback from the student.

Re: Learn to play Go

#127
post #74

I heavily dislike the auto-generated translations. They sound weird and make the website look cheap. I would rather you provided no translations and maybe let those less comfortable with English among us use their browser's auto-translate feature. Also, I'm sure there are several volunteers out there who would gladly translate this amazing resource for free.

> Also, I'm sure there are several volunteers out there who would gladly translate this amazing resource for free. The site is doing this exactly because those volunteers haven't shown up. Be the change you want to see in the world.

I'm not that into go. And I still think forcing AI slop on people is untasteful, doubly so when it is that unnecessary.

Re: Learn to play Go

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I do wonder how Lee Sodul will react if we told him that the superhuman AI he played could not see ladders... and had other such key weaknesses. I wonder what Kasparov thinks of the fact that he was beaten by such a primitive chess program as Deep Blue's!

Ladders are a thing so easy that its literally in this beginner series of tutorials. Its a thing that 30kyu beginners learn and master. Its very strange to me that AlphaGo / AlphaZero was unable to ever learn ladders. It shows that the way humans learn and AIs learn is quite different (or at least, MCTS + Neural Net machines learn differently). Yes, Go is a strategic game of patterns and perhaps we humans overemphasi…

>we need to double-check all those "strategically brilliant" moves with the newer AI

Thanks for this detailed response/thought. As a layperson, cannot wait for the documentary on KataGo (AlphaGo II).

Re: Learn to play Go

#129
This has some serious bugs.

I just tried to play 2.16 is the group alive. It told me I was wrong for saying black was alive when it clearly had two eyes.

Then I tried 2.17 and it showed me a screen of a black formation that has two eyes, but then says "White to play. Make two eyes." This is clearly the wrong prompt for this board. Not only is the color wrong, but the formation already has two eyes so I don't know what you want me to do here.

Re: Learn to play Go

#130
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unfortunately, the early moves in the game ("Joseki") are the most important. They are also the most difficult to learn. Nah, they aren't the most important (you can do without), not are the usual ones particularly difficult to learn. Source: I'm a European 4 Dan. (To expand on this: if you're a beginner, joseki don't matter. When you become a strong player (several of my friends are professional players), joseki i…

Could you look at a few examples from the example tutorials under discussion? https://online-go.com/learn-to-play-go/bl1-stretch/6 https://online-go.com/learn-to-play-go/bl1-stretch/9 I'm saying that this "correct move" is a middle-game error. Maybe its my 9kyu brain being bad here, but there's nothing about this tutorial (and many others like it in this tutorial series) that strikes me as a strategic error. And I ce…

Agreed, no point in learning these nobi in the tutorial.

The first one is indeed probably just a little bit worse than a jump.

The second one, I'd extend too: it strengthens white and black has to come back to live. You could think about the hane instead, but at worst black can play the cuts and come back to live at 2-2.

Post reply on HN