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Hey Yahoo, You’re Optimizing the Wrong Thing

hilarymason.com

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Re: Hey Yahoo, You’re Optimizing the Wrong Thing

#61

Post by batista »

chimeracoder wrote: post #50
batista wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? Because nothing in that bio points to that. Actually the whole thing is unbelievably vague and opaque. And these kind of cutesy oneliner descriptions of one's skills make me cringe: "Simply: I make beautiful things with data". OK, she works as a "chief scientist" (that's not even a job, for us, old time folks, but anyway) at bitly (a URL shortening service, i.e as far away from a real business as you can get,…

> a URL shortening service, i.e as far away from a real business as you can get, Please define 'real business'. What does a company need to have to be a 'real' business? Users? Revenue? Profits? A product that at least some people are willing to pay money for? I agree that bit.ly is a very simple concept , but I take issue with the disdain in your post - even URL shortening stops being straightforward once you expand…

>Please define 'real business'. What does a company need to have to be a 'real' business? Users? Revenue? Profits? A product that at least some people are willing to pay money for?

Revenue and eventually profits. Even if "url shortening" is a "real business", it still is in the very far outskirts of "businesness". A very marginal value adding service, that exists solely because of some very marginal deficiencies of other services. Even Twitter has trouble monetizing, a "url shortening service" 100 times more so.

>even URL shortening stops being straightforward once you expand from n = 1 to n = 10,000,000.

I fail to see how. Even a simple setup can handle 10,000,000 shortened urls with aplomb. And url shortening is the most sharding friendly use case you can get, ie linear scaling is trivial in a url shortening service.

>You may not think Hilary's qualified to talk about the details of Yahoo's particular advertising model, but don't extend that into what's bordering on an ad-hominem attack against a very legitimate startup, as well as a key figure at said startup.

Well, she may or may not be qualified. I just pointed out that the page the parent pointed to as proof of her competence on the matter doesn't _prove_ her qualifications at all.

Re: Hey Yahoo, You’re Optimizing the Wrong Thing

#63

Post by talmand »

Evbn wrote: post #60
talmand wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the example provided the ad link has a decent amount of white space between it and the inbox link. There's even an intended barrier between the two in the form of a horizontal rule, granted one pixel. What more do you want? Are we to ascertain the shakiness level of the user to determine the proper amount of white space? A CSS media query maybe? @media min-shakiness: 0.5 and max-shakiness: 1 But then, I'm just bei…

A shakiness adjustment is a great idea, like high-contrast mode in the OS UI. Adroid Chrome does this, it zooms in when you click on a link near another link, and makes you reclick on theink you want.

Please keep in mind, I was being sarcastic.

Re: Hey Yahoo, You’re Optimizing the Wrong Thing

#64

Post by dllthomas »

mike_esspe wrote: post #54
mistercow wrote: post #23

Can someone explain to me what the appeal is of tap-to-click on trackpads? It's obviously terrible for usability for anyone with less-than-perfect motor control, but even for someone with ordinary dexterity like myself, it can be infuriating. I don't want to have to tread lightly around my trackpad just to keep from accidentally clicking on stuff. And it's not just me; I watch other people use laptops, and their usag…

I never have this problem with touchpad, did you change the sensitivity threshold? Have you tried touchpad from another brand?

I think you're the odd one; I've had this problem and witnessed others having it, on most computers I've encountered with the feature. I have tap-to-click disabled on my laptop for precisely that reason.

Re: Hey Yahoo, You’re Optimizing the Wrong Thing

#65

Post by kreilly »

aresant wrote: post #12

The ad is well placed to ensure most users will see it - check out the average horizontal attention graph below to understand the necessity of that placement in the UI vs further right or lower on the page: http://www.conversionvoodoo.com/blog/2010/04/test-your-horiz... That ad unit is available only through Yahoo's CPM program - not self serve and I know for a fact that ad unit sells out months in advance with huge…

I'm speculating here, but my guess is that part of the reason it sells out is because the person buying it is measured on CTR. If this placement has a high CTR it is going to lift the overall media campaign and make the buyer look good.

Re: Hey Yahoo, You’re Optimizing the Wrong Thing

#66

Post by eli »

shawndumas wrote: post #55
eli wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bought a mouse a decade ago for my grandma that was specifically for people with movement disorders. It's got nice ergonomics and a little microprocessor that runs some sort of smoothing algorithm to cancel out unintended jerky movements. Worked pretty well.

a link (or a non-generic search term) please and thanks.

Sorry, it's been a while. I think this might be it (or at least some version of it) http://www.montrosesecam.com/Products.html

Re: Hey Yahoo, You’re Optimizing the Wrong Thing

#67

Post by verisimilidude »

talmand wrote: post #56
verisimilidude wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Granted, life puts limitations on us as we get older but I don't understand how one can predict behaviors of people who do not fully read what they are clicking on. See, you've misunderstood the root of the problem. This person knew exactly where he wanted to click, he aimed for those targets, and his physical limitations caused him to miss those targets. User intent is not the problem. The problem here is the penalt…

As I posted in another comment, the problem you describe exists for this person regardless of whether it involves an ad or not. The entire UI for this app is a serious problem with a person of these limitations. I fail to see how going to an ad page is a worse offense than going to Drafts as opposed to Inbox. Either way the person in question has to correct the mistake. Expensive in what way? Money, time, embarrassme…

I fail to see how going to an ad page is a worse offense than going to Drafts as opposed to Inbox. Either way the person in question has to correct the mistake. Expensive in what way? Money, time, embarrassment? I don't see the difference.

At first it's going to be confusion. It's the difference between quickly being able to understand the mistake (because the whole interface is still on the screen, with the pointer maybe in the same position) vs. suddenly being on a completely different site. Keep in mind that this is a missed link, so the user may not immediately know what has been clicked.

After the guy has been using Yahoo Mail for a while and the peril of that ad is well understood, it's just going to become really really annoying, getting sent off-site, every time he hits it. And he will hit it.

Could it be possible they have it there because they consider that you are more likely to see it there and not that you'll accidentally click on it?

Sure. But is that the best choice? That's the question. Like you say, even fully able-bodied people sometimes click the wrong link. It seems like a good idea to take that into consideration when placing what may be the two most trafficked buttons within your interface. I'm not assuming nefarious purposes on Yahoo's part.

I can't say what the optimum vertical height of a button should be for a shaky person. Gmail serves my purposes fairly well without making many design compromises.

Re: Hey Yahoo, You’re Optimizing the Wrong Thing

#68

Post by verisimilidude »

talmand wrote: post #58
verisimilidude wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Large link targets surrounded by empty negative space seem like an easy way to solve this problem. That's correct. Adding a tasteful mouse-over effect also serves as a nice additional visual cue. (Speaking from experience: I have a very shaky hand due to an old injury.)

Just curious, why do you feel a hover effect helps in this situation? As an indicator that the pointer is where you expect it to be? How does the hover effect help in cases of shaking hands that cause the pointer to move upon click? Also, do you use a mouse or trackpad? Seriously, I'm curious.

It's a good question and I'm happy to oblige.

First, I use many pointing devices. With my home standing desk, I use an Evoluent vertical mouse. With my workplace sitting desk, I do better with a trackball (it's huge). When I need to take my laptop on the road, I just use the trackpad. They all have their pros and cons depending upon the task at hand.

I think the hover effect helps by making the click a more reflex-driven event. Even if my cursor is skittering about a little bit, a mouse-over effect helps the lower parts of my brain "pull the trigger" at the right moment. I'd describe it as a lot like playing an FPS or some other fast-moving action game. Sounds lame and totally unscientific, I know, but I definitely notice the difference.

Re: Hey Yahoo, You’re Optimizing the Wrong Thing

#69

Post by mistercow »

vadman wrote: post #49
mistercow wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or just, you know, turn off tap-to-click.

Touchpads are IMO less ergonomic and less intuitive than mice, sounds like her grandfather could use an extra bit of both.

A touchpad on a laptop is less ergonomic than a mouse on a properly arranged desktop. But a touchpad on a laptop is more ergonomic than a mouse on a laptop unless you set up your laptop like a desktop (place it on a stand on a big, clear desk with an external keyboard in front and a mouse pad to the side). Trying to use a mouse with a laptop that is sitting on your lap is, in my experience, invariably awkward.

Re: Hey Yahoo, You’re Optimizing the Wrong Thing

#70

Post by alttag »

cbsmith wrote: post #35

It's unfortunate that the person who wrote this article didn't consult with someone more informed about the online advertising world. As someone who has been in the belly of the beast, I'm going to try to summarize the various ways that this article is getting it wrong. * Most Yahoo Mail ads generate revenue based on impressions, not clicks. So Yahoo isn't directly making more money by grabbing these "random" clicks.…

  > * It turns out what most impacts ad effectiveness online 
  > is whether people actually see the ad. ... Highly visible 
  > and likely to evoke accidental clicks are, unfortunately, 
  > highly correlated.
A good summary of the OP's point, I think.

I'm not sure what your end point here is, as it's all over the map, but you seems to simultaneously be arguing against the author's point and for it as well.

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