Hey Yahoo, You’re Optimizing the Wrong Thing • Hacker News Board

Re: Hey Yahoo, You’re Optimizing the Wrong Thing

#51

Post by wicknicks » Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 6:33 PM UTC

cbsmith wrote: post #35

It's unfortunate that the person who wrote this article didn't consult with someone more informed about the online advertising world. As someone who has been in the belly of the beast, I'm going to try to summarize the various ways that this article is getting it wrong. * Most Yahoo Mail ads generate revenue based on impressions, not clicks. So Yahoo isn't directly making more money by grabbing these "random" clicks.…

I'm not sure if I understand your criticism. The article seemed to be commenting about the placement of ads (which she believes to be optimized by analytics), not about the economics of ads or how they are processed behind-the-scenes. I come from a data understanding background, and the cool thing I liked about this article was the following statement:

"...experiences like this are great reminders that data only takes us so far, and creativity and clear thinking are always required to find the best solutions..."

This might be very basic knowledge for everyone, but many researchers in machine learning & data mining community do not think like this. They believe that data tells the entire story.

Re: Hey Yahoo, You’re Optimizing the Wrong Thing

#52

Post by talmand » Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 6:40 PM UTC

smacktoward wrote: post #37

talmand wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the example provided the ad link has a decent amount of white space between it and the inbox link. There's even an intended barrier between the two in the form of a horizontal rule, granted one pixel. What more do you want? Are we to ascertain the shakiness level of the user to determine the proper amount of white space? A CSS media query maybe? @media min-shakiness: 0.5 and max-shakiness: 1 But then, I'm just bei…

In the example provided the ad link has a decent amount of white space between it and the inbox link "Decent" for whom? For you, maybe, because your motor skills are sharp. For those whose aren't, maybe not so much. Are we to ascertain the shakiness level of the user to determine the proper amount of white space? A CSS media query maybe? ...But then, I'm just being rude here, sorry. Yes, you are. Degraded/impaired mo…

Decent for whom is my point. How far down the path do we go before it's a losing proposition? You cannot possibly please everyone and yet people are advocating that we must or be labeled failures.

I admitted I was being rude. The point is that we cannot possibly account for every kind of limitation that people may have. We do the best that we can realizing that we cannot account for everything. The only answer to that question is to remove the ad altogether, which is not a solution.

Ok, good point, the problem being seeing one spot to click on but clicking on another by accident. Now explain to me exactly how one is supposed to predict that and account for it? Accidental bump on a trackpad is not a problem inherent with the design of the site, it's a problem of the hardware and its usage. It's the same problem with the vertical row of links that belong to the app in question, despite the ad placement. Are we suggesting that the menu links on the left should be separated by at least fifty vertical pixels?

So, my original point, what's the optimum distance between two links to avoid accidental clicking due to physical limitations and hardware problems? There is no way to determine that.

The example given of Google using low contrast colors to separate search results from ads is a good example of taking advantage. This Yahoo example is not because the two links in question do have a noticeable separation and do not bear any resemblance to each other. People clicking on spot fully expecting that they are clicking on another is a completely different topic and is not indicative that Yahoo is taking advantage of anyone. How can one claim that Yahoo is somehow taking advantage of people by tricking them into clicking on ads that are "close" to an intended link? What exactly do they benefit from this?

Re: Hey Yahoo, You’re Optimizing the Wrong Thing

#53

Post by napierzaza » Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 6:41 PM UTC

wicknicks wrote: post #51

cbsmith wrote: post #35

It's unfortunate that the person who wrote this article didn't consult with someone more informed about the online advertising world. As someone who has been in the belly of the beast, I'm going to try to summarize the various ways that this article is getting it wrong. * Most Yahoo Mail ads generate revenue based on impressions, not clicks. So Yahoo isn't directly making more money by grabbing these "random" clicks.…

I'm not sure if I understand your criticism. The article seemed to be commenting about the placement of ads (which she believes to be optimized by analytics), not about the economics of ads or how they are processed behind-the-scenes. I come from a data understanding background, and the cool thing I liked about this article was the following statement: "...experiences like this are great reminders that data only take…

The OP's argument is that they think Yahoo thinks it's a good placement because they must get a lot of clicks from that ad, because her grandpa clicked that ad a lot by accident. The title being that "yahoo you're optimizing the wrong thing" meaning that they MUST be optimizing the ad placement based on the mis-clicks.

cbsmith's argument is that sort of click is actually not desired and not optimized for. That nobody wants those clicks and they are generally easy to identify via different metrics (see his detailed examples for details).

Re: Hey Yahoo, You’re Optimizing the Wrong Thing

#54

Post by mike_esspe » Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 6:43 PM UTC

mistercow wrote: post #23

Can someone explain to me what the appeal is of tap-to-click on trackpads? It's obviously terrible for usability for anyone with less-than-perfect motor control, but even for someone with ordinary dexterity like myself, it can be infuriating. I don't want to have to tread lightly around my trackpad just to keep from accidentally clicking on stuff. And it's not just me; I watch other people use laptops, and their usag…

I never have this problem with touchpad, did you change the sensitivity threshold? Have you tried touchpad from another brand?

Re: Hey Yahoo, You’re Optimizing the Wrong Thing

#55

Post by shawndumas » Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 6:47 PM UTC

eli wrote: post #42

ceslami wrote: post #5

This piece confused me for several reasons. First, if anything, this seems like an accessibility problem that would be hard to solve. Shakiness affects many of us as we get older, but it is hard to design a website around this constraint. Second, there is an implication that this ad placement is somehow "surely wrong," and a step further, is likely only successful due to pseudo-fraudulent interactions. I want to rebu…

I bought a mouse a decade ago for my grandma that was specifically for people with movement disorders. It's got nice ergonomics and a little microprocessor that runs some sort of smoothing algorithm to cancel out unintended jerky movements. Worked pretty well.

a link (or a non-generic search term) please and thanks.

Re: Hey Yahoo, You’re Optimizing the Wrong Thing

#56

Post by talmand » Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 6:52 PM UTC

verisimilidude wrote: post #41

talmand wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the example provided the ad link has a decent amount of white space between it and the inbox link. There's even an intended barrier between the two in the form of a horizontal rule, granted one pixel. What more do you want? Are we to ascertain the shakiness level of the user to determine the proper amount of white space? A CSS media query maybe? @media min-shakiness: 0.5 and max-shakiness: 1 But then, I'm just bei…

Granted, life puts limitations on us as we get older but I don't understand how one can predict behaviors of people who do not fully read what they are clicking on. See, you've misunderstood the root of the problem. This person knew exactly where he wanted to click, he aimed for those targets, and his physical limitations caused him to miss those targets. User intent is not the problem. The problem here is the penalt…

As I posted in another comment, the problem you describe exists for this person regardless of whether it involves an ad or not. The entire UI for this app is a serious problem with a person of these limitations.

I fail to see how going to an ad page is a worse offense than going to Drafts as opposed to Inbox. Either way the person in question has to correct the mistake. Expensive in what way? Money, time, embarrassment? I don't see the difference.

The ad is between Compose and Inbox, so what? Are you suggesting that Yahoo somehow benefits from an accidental click on this ad? What's the purpose of them putting it there? Could it be possible they have it there because they consider that you are more likely to see it there and not that you'll accidentally click on it?

And again, what's the optimum distance that's acceptable? Fifty pixels? One hundred? I would have to assume that if this is the problem then it is a potential problem for nearly every website and application ever made. The reason this bothers me is because people are saying the burden is on Yahoo to fix this when the problem does not necessarily lay with them, but other factors are in play they have no control over. Some people are even suggesting nefarious reasons for this ad placement to "trick" people into clicking on it. For what benefit?

I too sometimes click on something other than what I intended. Most of the time I don't blame the app, I blame myself. There are times that people will employ tricks to get you to do what they want, that's when you complain; this is not a good example of this.

Re: Hey Yahoo, You’re Optimizing the Wrong Thing

#57

Post by Evbn » Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 7:00 PM UTC

levesque wrote: post #39

mattj wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's a very non-trivial chance the person who wrote this article knows much more about advertising than you think: http://www.hilarymason.com/about/

She's a data geek. How does that make her an expert about advertising?

She also had a blog and a Google Plus page. What more credentials does one need?

Re: Hey Yahoo, You’re Optimizing the Wrong Thing

#58

Post by talmand » Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 7:01 PM UTC

verisimilidude wrote: post #19

smacktoward wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shakiness affects many of us as we get older, but it is hard to design a website around this constraint. Is it? Large link targets surrounded by empty negative space seem like an easy way to solve this problem. The issue is only an issue because Yahoo puts the links in tinytext and crowds the ad link right up next to the "Inbox" link, so a twitch can send the cursor scooting past the link you want to click on to the…

Large link targets surrounded by empty negative space seem like an easy way to solve this problem. That's correct. Adding a tasteful mouse-over effect also serves as a nice additional visual cue. (Speaking from experience: I have a very shaky hand due to an old injury.)

Just curious, why do you feel a hover effect helps in this situation? As an indicator that the pointer is where you expect it to be? How does the hover effect help in cases of shaking hands that cause the pointer to move upon click?

Also, do you use a mouse or trackpad?

Seriously, I'm curious.

Re: Hey Yahoo, You’re Optimizing the Wrong Thing

#59

Post by commandar » Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 7:06 PM UTC

mistercow wrote: post #23

Can someone explain to me what the appeal is of tap-to-click on trackpads? It's obviously terrible for usability for anyone with less-than-perfect motor control, but even for someone with ordinary dexterity like myself, it can be infuriating. I don't want to have to tread lightly around my trackpad just to keep from accidentally clicking on stuff. And it's not just me; I watch other people use laptops, and their usag…

Personally, I hate tactile clicking on trackpads. Especially on newer Mac-style trackpads where the track surface is the button; I constantly have issues with my cursor moving and missing what I intend to click.

If you have a touchpad with crappy drivers, tap-to-click can be painful, yes, but good touchpads are pretty decent at discarding accidental taps. Many drivers also have options to adjust tap length, etc, if you're interested in fine-tuning it, but it's never something I've had to do personally.

Re: Hey Yahoo, You’re Optimizing the Wrong Thing

#60

Post by Evbn » Tue, Sep 18, 2012, 7:07 PM UTC

talmand wrote: post #21

smacktoward wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shakiness affects many of us as we get older, but it is hard to design a website around this constraint. Is it? Large link targets surrounded by empty negative space seem like an easy way to solve this problem. The issue is only an issue because Yahoo puts the links in tinytext and crowds the ad link right up next to the "Inbox" link, so a twitch can send the cursor scooting past the link you want to click on to the…

In the example provided the ad link has a decent amount of white space between it and the inbox link. There's even an intended barrier between the two in the form of a horizontal rule, granted one pixel. What more do you want? Are we to ascertain the shakiness level of the user to determine the proper amount of white space? A CSS media query maybe? @media min-shakiness: 0.5 and max-shakiness: 1 But then, I'm just bei…

A shakiness adjustment is a great idea, like high-contrast mode in the OS UI. Adroid Chrome does this, it zooms in when you click on a link near another link, and makes you reclick on theink you want.