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Demand for human radiologists is at an all-time high

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Re: Demand for human radiologists is at an all-time high

#451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you need the first 4 years undergrad - in places like the UK you can go straight to study medicine from secondary school at age ~18?

The belief is -- and it is one that I share -- that this makes for more well rounded, human physicians. Additionally, a greater depth of thinking leads to better diagnosticians, and physician-scientists as well (IMO). Now, all of this is predicated on the traditional model of the University education, not the glorified jobs training program that it has slowly become.

When I was in Australia and applying to study medicine (late 90s):

Course acceptance is initially driven by academic performance, and ranked scoring.

To get into Medicine at Monash and Melbourne Universities, you'd need a TER (Tertiary Entrance Ranking) of 99.8 (i.e. top 0.2% of students). This number was derived by course demand and capacity.

But, during my time, Monash was known for having a supplementary interview process with panel and individual interviews - the interview group was composed of faculty, practicing physicians not affiliated with the university, psychologists, and lay community members - specifically with the goal of looking for those well-rounded individuals.

It should also be noted that though "undergrad", there's little difference in the roadmap. Indeed when I was applying, the MBBS degree (Bachelor of Medicine and Surgery) was a six-year undergrad (soon revised to five), with similar post grad residency and other requirements for licensure and unrestricted practice.

Re: Demand for human radiologists is at an all-time high

#452
post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cynically, it's also a way for the US system to gatekeep "poor" people from entering professions like medicine and law because of the extra tuition fees (and opportunity time-cost) needed to complete their studies.

I am a natural skeptic, but in this case I think it is just an accident of history how different systems developed. FWIW, although this is not well known, many medical schools offer combined BA/MD degrees, ranging from 4-8 years: https://students-residents.aamc.org/medical-school-admission... When I went 20 years ago, my school did not require a bachelor's degree and would admit exceptional students after 2 years of…

In Australia, Medicine was/is typically an undergrad degree.

In the mid-90s my school started offering a Bachelor of Biomedical Science which was targeted at two audiences - people who wanted to go into Medicine from a research, not clinical perspective, and people who wanted to practice medicine in the US (specifically because it was so laborious for people to get credentialed in the US with a foreign medical degree, that people were starting to say "I will do my pre-med in Australia, and then just go to a US medical school").

Re: Demand for human radiologists is at an all-time high

#453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Self driving cars in 2025 in USA is like Solar PV in China in 2010, it will take a while, but give them time to learn, adapt and expand.

And where the solar panel were in China in 2000? Because self-driving cars on public roads in USA have been a WIP for 10 years at least.

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Re: Demand for human radiologists is at an all-time high

#454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla still hasn't accepted liability for crashes caused by FSD. They in fact fight any such claims in court very vigorously.

They have settled out of court in every single case. None has gone to trial. This suggests that the company is afraid not only of the amount of damages that could be awarded by a jury, but also legal precedent that holds them or other manufacturers liable for injuries caused by FSD failures.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/tesla-autopilot-crash-t...

Tesla hit with $243 million in damages after jury finds its Autopilot feature contributed to fatal crash

The verdict follows a three-week trial that threw a spotlight on how Tesla and CEO Elon Musk have marketed their driver-assistance software.

Re: Demand for human radiologists is at an all-time high

#455
post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does a human conductor stop a train from hitting a deer? Do they spot it from 3 miles away? The THSR I rode solved the wildlife problems with a big windshield wiper. Not sure what else there is to do. It’s a train .

At least one train has crashed with fatalities due to hitting a cow.

Can you provide a reference?

That's difficult to believe. Was this a diesel locomotive pulling a freight train or was it something smaller/lighter?

Re: Demand for human radiologists is at an all-time high

#456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your belief is held by many, many radiologists. One thing I like to highlight is that LLMs and LVMs are much more advanced than any model in the past. In particular, they do not require specific training data to contain a diagnosis. They don't even require specific modality data to make inferences. Think about how you learned anatomy. You probably looked at Netter drawings or Grey's long before you ever saw a CT or M…

Hi aabajian, thanks for replying! I might quibble with your math a little. Most CTs have more than 100 images, in fact as you know stroke protocols have thousands. And many scans are reconstructed with different kernels, i.e. soft tissue, bone, lung. So maybe your number is a little low. Still your point is a good one, that there is probably a finite number of imaging presentations possible. Let's pre-dictate them al…

Haha, I’m also an IR with AI research experience.

My view is much more in line with yours and this interpretation.

Another point - I think many people (including other clinicians) have a sense that radiology is a practice of clear cut findings and descriptions, when in practice it’s anything but.

At another level beyond the imaging appearance and clinical interpretation is the fact that our reports are also interpreted at a professional and “political” level.

I can imagine a busy neurosurgeon running a good practice calling the hospital CEO to discuss unforgiving interpretations of post op scans from the AI bot……

Re: Demand for human radiologists is at an all-time high

#457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi aabajian, thanks for replying! I might quibble with your math a little. Most CTs have more than 100 images, in fact as you know stroke protocols have thousands. And many scans are reconstructed with different kernels, i.e. soft tissue, bone, lung. So maybe your number is a little low. Still your point is a good one, that there is probably a finite number of imaging presentations possible. Let's pre-dictate them al…

Haha, I’m also an IR with AI research experience. My view is much more in line with yours and this interpretation. Another point - I think many people (including other clinicians) have a sense that radiology is a practice of clear cut findings and descriptions, when in practice it’s anything but. At another level beyond the imaging appearance and clinical interpretation is the fact that our reports are also interpret…

> I can imagine a busy neurosurgeon running a good practice calling the hospital CEO to discuss unforgiving interpretations of post op scans from the AI bot……

I have fielded these phone calls, lol, and would absolutely love to see ChatGPT handle this.

Re: Demand for human radiologists is at an all-time high

#458
post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is like saying that self-driving cars won't ever become a thing because someone behind the wheel needs to be to blame. The article cites AI systems that the FDA already has cleared to operate without a physicians' validation.

Medicine does not work like traffic. There is no reason for a human to care whether the other car is being driven by a machine. Medicine is existential . The job of a doctor is not to look at data, give a diagnosis and leave. A crucial function of practicing doctors is communication and human interaction with their patients. When your life is on the line (and frankly, even if it isn't), you do not want to talk to an…

> There is no reason for a human to care whether the other car is being driven by a machine.

What? If I don't trust the machine or the software running it, absolutely I do, if I have to share the road with that car, as its mistakes are quite capable of killing me.

(Yes, I can die in other accidents too. But saying "there's no reason for me to care if the cars around me are filled with people sleeping while FSD tries to solve driving" is not accurate.)

Re: Demand for human radiologists is at an all-time high

#459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You pay extra for a doctor's opinion. Probably not covered by insurance.

That's horrific. You pay insurance to have ChatGPT make the diagnosis. But you still need to pay out of pocket anyway. Because of that, I am 100% confident this will become reality. It is too good to pass up.

People will flock to "AI medical" insurance that costs $50/mo and lets you see whatever AI specialist you want whenever you want.

Re: Demand for human radiologists is at an all-time high

#460

I'm an interventional radiologist with a master's in computer science. People outside radiology don't get why AI hasn't taken over. Can AI read diagnostic images better than a radiologist? Almost certainly the answer is (or will be) yes. Will radiologists be replaced? Almost certainly the answer is no. Why not? Medical risk. Unless the law changes, a radiologist will have to sign off on each imaging report. So say yo…

I'm a diagnostic radiologist with 20 years clinical experience, and I have been programming computers since 1979. I need to challenge one of your core assumptions. > Can AI read diagnostic images better than a radiologist? Almost certainly the answer is (or will be) yes. I'm sorry, but I disagree, and I think you are making a wild assumption here. I am up to date on the latest AI products in radiology, use several of…

Johns Hopkins has an in house AI unit where they train their own AI's to do imaging analysis. In fact this center made the rounds a few months ago in an NYT story about AI in radiology.

What was left out was that these "cutting edge" AI imaging models were old school CNNs from the mid 2010's, running on local computers. It seems only right now is the idea of using transformers (what LLMs are) is being explored.

In that sense, we still do not know what a purpose build "ChatGPT of radiology" would be capable of, but if we use the data point of comparing AI from 2015 to AI of 2025, the step up in ability is enormous.

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