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Demand for human radiologists is at an all-time high

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Re: Demand for human radiologists is at an all-time high

#381
post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not. I was trying to evoke a world where it's become so common place that you're a nuisance if you're one of those people who questions it.

Need to work on the comedic delivery in written form because you just came off as leaning on a stereotype

[deleted]

Re: Demand for human radiologists is at an all-time high

#382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Medicine does not work like traffic. There is no reason for a human to care whether the other car is being driven by a machine. Medicine is existential . The job of a doctor is not to look at data, give a diagnosis and leave. A crucial function of practicing doctors is communication and human interaction with their patients. When your life is on the line (and frankly, even if it isn't), you do not want to talk to an…

So, you need a moral support human? Like a big plushie, but more alive?

You know, for most humans, empathy is a thing; all the more so when facing known or suspected health situations. Good on those who have transcended that need. I guess.

Re: Demand for human radiologists is at an all-time high

#383
post #277

I'm an interventional radiologist with a master's in computer science. People outside radiology don't get why AI hasn't taken over. Can AI read diagnostic images better than a radiologist? Almost certainly the answer is (or will be) yes. Will radiologists be replaced? Almost certainly the answer is no. Why not? Medical risk. Unless the law changes, a radiologist will have to sign off on each imaging report. So say yo…

This is like saying that self-driving cars won't ever become a thing because someone behind the wheel needs to be to blame. The article cites AI systems that the FDA already has cleared to operate without a physicians' validation.

This is essentially what's happened with airliners.

Planes can land themselves with zero human intervention in all kinds of weather conditions and operating environments. In fact, there was a documentary where the plane landed so precisely that you could hear the tires hitting the center lane marker as it landed and then taxied.

Yet we STILL have pilots as a "last line of defense" in case something goes wrong.

Re: Demand for human radiologists is at an all-time high

#384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not meaningfully. Beyond basics like a large tumor, a bone break, etc, there’s alot too it.

my pcp doesn’t even have the tools to view an mri even though part of a hospital system.

That’s an issue with that practice. I had the tools to view MRIs in my laptop.

Re: Demand for human radiologists is at an all-time high

#385
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Three things explain this. First, while models beat humans on benchmarks, the standardized tests designed to measure AI performance, they struggle to replicate this performance in hospital conditions. Most tools can only diagnose abnormalities that are common in training data, and models often don’t work as well outside of their test conditions. Second, attempts to give models more tasks have run into legal hurdles:…

Another key extract from the article > The performance of a tool can drop as much as 20 percentage points when it is tested out of sample, on data from other hospitals. In one study, a pneumonia detection model trained on chest X-rays from a single hospital performed substantially worse when tested at a different hospital. That screams of over fitting to the training data.

Because that is literally happening. I did a bit of work developing some radiological models and sample size for healthy vs malignant is usually 4 to 1. Then you modify the error function so that it makes malignants more significant (you are quite often working with datasets as low as 500 images, so 80/20 training validation split means you are left with 80 examples of malignant) which means that as soon as you take a realistic sample where one specific condition maybe appears in 1/100 or 1/1000 the false positives make your model practically useless.

Of course SOTA models are much better, but getting medical data is quite difficult and expensive so there is not a lot of them.

Re: Demand for human radiologists is at an all-time high

#386
post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is like saying that self-driving cars won't ever become a thing because someone behind the wheel needs to be to blame. The article cites AI systems that the FDA already has cleared to operate without a physicians' validation.

This is essentially what's happened with airliners. Planes can land themselves with zero human intervention in all kinds of weather conditions and operating environments. In fact, there was a documentary where the plane landed so precisely that you could hear the tires hitting the center lane marker as it landed and then taxied. Yet we STILL have pilots as a "last line of defense" in case something goes wrong.

One difference there would be that the cost of the pilots is tiny vs the rest that goes into a flight. But I would bet that the cost of the doctor is a bigger % of the process of getting an x-ray.

Re: Demand for human radiologists is at an all-time high

#387
post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is like saying that self-driving cars won't ever become a thing because someone behind the wheel needs to be to blame. The article cites AI systems that the FDA already has cleared to operate without a physicians' validation.

Medicine does not work like traffic. There is no reason for a human to care whether the other car is being driven by a machine. Medicine is existential . The job of a doctor is not to look at data, give a diagnosis and leave. A crucial function of practicing doctors is communication and human interaction with their patients. When your life is on the line (and frankly, even if it isn't), you do not want to talk to an…

You often don't speak to the radiologist anyway. Lots of radiologist work remotely and don't meet and speak with every patient.

Re: Demand for human radiologists is at an all-time high

#388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah we don't need to compare robots to the best driver or human, just the average, for an improvement. However, like railroad safety is expensive heavily regulated, self driving car companies have the same issue. Decentralized driving decentralizes risk. so when I have my _own_ robot to do it, it'll be easy and cheap.

> Yeah we don't need to compare robots to the best driver or human, just the average, for an improvement. Sure, in theory. In practice, nobody is going to give up control on the basis that the machine is "slightly better than average". Those who consider the safety data when making their decision will demand a system that's just as good as the best human drivers in most aspects. And speaking of Waymo, let's not forge…

> And speaking of Waymo, let's not forget that they only operate in a handful of places. Their safety data doesn't generalize outside of those areas.

Yeah, I'm curious in seeing how they function in environments that get snow.

Re: Demand for human radiologists is at an all-time high

#389

I'm an interventional radiologist with a master's in computer science. People outside radiology don't get why AI hasn't taken over. Can AI read diagnostic images better than a radiologist? Almost certainly the answer is (or will be) yes. Will radiologists be replaced? Almost certainly the answer is no. Why not? Medical risk. Unless the law changes, a radiologist will have to sign off on each imaging report. So say yo…

Add to that that the demand for imaging is not fixed. Even if somehow imaging became a lot cheaper to do with AI, then likely we would just get more imaging done instead of having fewer radiologists.

Re: Demand for human radiologists is at an all-time high

#390
post #277

I'm an interventional radiologist with a master's in computer science. People outside radiology don't get why AI hasn't taken over. Can AI read diagnostic images better than a radiologist? Almost certainly the answer is (or will be) yes. Will radiologists be replaced? Almost certainly the answer is no. Why not? Medical risk. Unless the law changes, a radiologist will have to sign off on each imaging report. So say yo…

This is like saying that self-driving cars won't ever become a thing because someone behind the wheel needs to be to blame. The article cites AI systems that the FDA already has cleared to operate without a physicians' validation.

At the end of day, there's a decision needs to be made and decisions have consequences. And in our current society, there are only one way we know about how to make sure that the decision is taken with sufficient humanity: by putting a human to be responsible for making that decision.
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