Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Amazon fined $2.5B for using deceptive methods to sign up consumers for Prime

ftc.gov

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 191 posts

Re: Amazon fined $2.5B for using deceptive methods to sign up consumers for Prime

#61

Post by Brybry »

Larrikin wrote: post #3

Is this one of those situations where we sign up and get a bit of money from the company, or will we have already been contacted?

Amazon will pay $1 billion to the government as a penalty and set aside $1.5 billion for consumers. The settlement terms have most of the details. [0]

Amazon will do an automatic payout to some people for up to $51. No need to claim anything for that. I'm guessing they'll mail checks or prepaid debit cards or something.

Then Amazon will make a website, within 30 days, and post it on their site (and I'm sure news media will also post it) that will be for manual claims. These claims are also for up to $51 and people will have 180 days to manually claim.

After that, if there's still money, then Amazon will repeatedly do more $51 automatic payments to more people until they're out of money (basically more lax automatic qualification of Prime members from June 23, 2019 to June 23, 2025).

Basically ~30 million people get up to $51.

[0] https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/ftc_gov/pdf/Amazon-ROSCA-Or...

Re: Amazon fined $2.5B for using deceptive methods to sign up consumers for Prime

#62

Post by trenchpilgrim »

Analemma_ wrote: post #20
crazygringo wrote: post #13

> harmed by their deceptive Prime enrollment practices I'm still confused by this part. I didn't use Prime for a long time. I remember lots of buttons inviting me to sign up, just like YouTube asks me weekly if I want to subscribe to premium. But I don't remember anything seemingly deceptive, and none of the news articles seem to actually provide any details. So what precisely was deceptive? And even the cancellation…

I canceled Prime about 18 months ago, and now every single time I go to check out on Amazon, before the checkout page there's a splash screen a the gigantic, bright blue CHECK OUT WITH PRIME button, and then under that, in 8pt font with grey-on-white text, a "No thanks, continue without Prime" link. The lack of any subtlety would be hilarious if it wasn't so irritating. Throw the book at them.

Mine also uses wording that strongly implies I'll be paying as much as $7 for shipping without Prime, on an order with free shipping.

Re: Amazon fined $2.5B for using deceptive methods to sign up consumers for Prime

#63

Post by macNchz »

NBJack wrote: post #28
crazygringo wrote: post #13

> harmed by their deceptive Prime enrollment practices I'm still confused by this part. I didn't use Prime for a long time. I remember lots of buttons inviting me to sign up, just like YouTube asks me weekly if I want to subscribe to premium. But I don't remember anything seemingly deceptive, and none of the news articles seem to actually provide any details. So what precisely was deceptive? And even the cancellation…

This is a quick visual walk thru of the pattern before they fixed it: https://youtube.com/shorts/FYnr1llUVG0?si=xzMV-Q7NHdtfoKSs

This is even a somewhat less aggressive flow than it used to be, I think. I dug up this screenshot of a part of the cancellation process as it existed when I went through it in 2018 or 2019, which confused me at the time: https://i0.wp.com/ebookfriendly.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/...

I had an annual subscription, and the options on that page made it seem like if I were to cancel that I'd actually lose access immediately, forfeiting the remaining value I'd already paid for. That wasn't in fact the case, but clearly it was designed to guide you into using the "Remind Me" button instead, which I imagine is a very leaky bucket—surely many people who fully intended to cancel would wind up missing the notification three days before renewal and get billed for another year.

Additionally, the text of the buttons and lack of explanation of what's going to happen gives that screen some finality: if I click "End my Benefits" does that mean they end immediately with no recourse? The next page actually showed that you could end and get a refund, or end at the end of the already-paid period, but it was obviously designed to make you uncertain.

Source of screenshot: https://ebookfriendly.com/how-successfully-cancel-amazon-pri...

It seems like they've been adjusting some of the language on the screens in the years since, but still in super confusing ways: https://www.reddit.com/r/amazonprime/comments/wdy84t/cancell...

Re: Amazon fined $2.5B for using deceptive methods to sign up consumers for Prime

#64

Post by andy99 »

dade_ wrote: post #51
andy99 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty heavily dark patterned for me. When you go checkout there is a big prime banner inviting you to click now that looks the the default "next screen" button, and smaller fainter text below saying "continue without enjoying prime benefits". Something similar happens again with the shipping. I only ever buy enough to get free shipping, but it never defaults to that, it tries to trick you by defaulting to paid,…

And, as noted in the article, it still wrongfully states decline Prime and pay for shipping despite shipping already being free if you are willing to wait for delayed shipping. Since I cancelled Prime, I have saved a fortune in addition to my $100. Not just on Amazon, but period. Super convenient and fast resulted in me buying more, now I am just buying much less stuff, make fewer orders less often. even waiting to g…

I cancelled prime because like all "prepaid" things, it's basically a scam or they wouldn't offer it.

When I used to have it, half of the items were "not eligible for prime" and many more were "add-on items" where you had to spend $25 or whatever before you could ship them free (in which case you don't need prime anyway). It was basically worthless.

Re: Amazon fined $2.5B for using deceptive methods to sign up consumers for Prime

#65

Post by gretch »

whatamidoingyo wrote: post #36

A few years ago, I got a new phone and a new number. I eventually went to Amazon, entered password, and then was prompted for the OTP, which was sent to my previous number (which I no longer had access to). I kept trying things until I was completely locked out of the account. I emailed them, no help. So, while being locked out of my account, I couldn't cancel my subscription to Kindle (lost all of the books, too). I…

> I'd hope that they fixed this. If an account is locked, it seems like it would be common sense to place a hold on any subscriptions associated with it.

The problem with this is you can deny someone's service very easily just by knowing publicly associated data (e.g. email address) and intentionally getting the password wrong a few times.

> So, while being locked out of my account, I couldn't cancel my subscription to Kindle (lost all of the books, too). I just kept getting charged month after month (of which I'd just forget about it after getting angry for a minute).

Most places have some law where you must be able to cancel by calling or some other path. But as a last line stop gap, you can contact your credit card company and deny the charges based on the inability to cancel.

In fact, this is one of the explicit value propositions of an intermediary payment company.

Re: Amazon fined $2.5B for using deceptive methods to sign up consumers for Prime

#66

Post by ModernMech »

whatamidoingyo wrote: post #36

A few years ago, I got a new phone and a new number. I eventually went to Amazon, entered password, and then was prompted for the OTP, which was sent to my previous number (which I no longer had access to). I kept trying things until I was completely locked out of the account. I emailed them, no help. So, while being locked out of my account, I couldn't cancel my subscription to Kindle (lost all of the books, too). I…

I had a similar experience with Google. Got locked out of gmail and Youtube premium kept billing. Couldn't log in to cancel, couldn't even find a phone number to call to cancel, there's no gmail customer support whatsoever. Youtube premium apparently has some customer support but you have to be logged in to use it. Ended up having to cancel my credit card.

Re: Amazon fined $2.5B for using deceptive methods to sign up consumers for Prime

#67

Post by dylan604 »

arcastroe wrote: post #40
ratelimitsteve wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you'd think they'd have better opsec then to let the nefarious purpose of the project be openly referenced by the title.

I don't know anything about the Iliad. I asked generative AI how the name fit in, or why it was appropriate for the project. Adding the response below, in case it helps others. ----- The name “Project Iliad” is almost certainly a reference to Homer’s Iliad, the ancient Greek epic poem about the Trojan War. The connection works as a kind of corporate in-joke or metaphor: The Iliad is long, complex, and arduous — much…

Why would you put any validity to that response what so ever?

Re: Amazon fined $2.5B for using deceptive methods to sign up consumers for Prime

#68

Post by al_borland »

I cancelled Prime last year after getting fed up with Amazon in several ways. Bringing ads to Prime Video was the straw that broke the camel’s back.

I do still end up ordering from time to time, and the checkout process for non-Prime members is horrific. Multiple Prime sign-up offers that I always need to carefully read so I don’t click the wrong thing, illogical default shipping options, with more tricks to try and get the user to sign up for Prime while choosing shipping, after having already declined multiple times.

I don’t know why any non-Prime customer would want to sign up for Prime after such a user-hostile experience full of dark patterns.

I graphed out my orders since the start of my Amazon account. There was a steady uptrend over 20 years, with yearly growth since 2018. All of that ended 2023. My orders fell off a cliff, dropping by 60% in 2024. The treatment of non-Prime customers isn’t winning me back, it’s pushing me further away. I think my goal for 2026 will be not to order anything from Amazon. It’s been such a bad experience. Apparently their goal of being the world’s most customer-centric company only applies to Prime users.

I hope this judgement will get them to change their ways, but I’m assuming they will do as little as possible to comply, and still pushing Prime hard.

Re: Amazon fined $2.5B for using deceptive methods to sign up consumers for Prime

#69

Post by ocdtrekkie »

BeetleB wrote: post #55
prasadjoglekar wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should read the original complaint. It alleged that Amazon made is really easy to inadvertently sign up for Prime, but much more difficult to cancel. See the PDF below and the screenshots that has. Upon filing of the complaint, Amazon removed these dark workflows quickly. https://deadline.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/FTC-Amazon-c...

For ending membership, start on page 44: > Clicking the link did not end Prime membership. Instead, it took the consumer to another page with a heading that read: “End Your Amazon Prime Membership.” The page contained a button labelled “End Your Prime Membership.” Pressing the button did not end Prime Membership. ... > Once consumers reached the Iliad Flow, they had to proceed through its entirety—spanning three page…

You know what was the best part?

> “Remind Me Later,” the button on the left, sent the consumer a reminder three days before their Prime membership renews

This feature didn't work. They just helpfully never reminded you you were about to get billed. I doubt that was accidental. I tested this several times.

Re: Amazon fined $2.5B for using deceptive methods to sign up consumers for Prime

#70

Post by dylan604 »

JCM9 wrote: post #34

Generally a fan of Prime. I’ll admit the shipping is pretty addictive. The rest of Prime is pretty meh. It’s a good deal on shipping and then a bunch of second-rate other stuff tacked on. On both .com and AWS, Amazon is reaching a stage of maturity where they’re running out of new customers. While still a fan of both, they’re both getting annoying as innovation slows and they get more annoying with a focus on doing t…

I kept Prime when they rolled the video streaming service into it. I had already been toying with the idea of canceling to break the addictive habit of using their fast shipping. Now that they've gone ads inserted into nearly everything including "included with prime" content, I'm just over it. Laziness and knowing my annual renewal is months away still keep me from experiencing the cancel hell that is in my future
Post reply on HN