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Female Producers in Saudi Arabia: "Did you have to wear the black thing?"

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31–40 of 53 posts

Re: Female Producers in Saudi Arabia: "Did you have to wear the black thing?"

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site. If you think something is spam or egregiously offtopic, you can flag it by going to its page and clicking on the "flag" link. (Not all users will see this; there is a karma threshold.) If you flag something, please don't also comment that you did." http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

In his defense, I don't think he was suggesting it's either spam or egregiously off topic. What bothers curmudgeons like me and him is the gentle slope towards Everybody News.

Also, the title of the submission is poorly worded, suggesting that the Arab producers were asking the question.

Re: Female Producers in Saudi Arabia: "Did you have to wear the black thing?"

#32
post #28
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I often feel the same way when I here these sorts of arguments. But I think you're off the mark. Extolling the virtues of full body cover for women is quite like saying that working cotton fields is really good for blacks, what with all that fresh air and exercise. You didn't get the majority of blacks to stand up & say that they feel cotton fields are liberating & dignified. That is a major difference. In fact, wome…

Ugh. Proponents of status quo always invoke tradition and use some attractively pastoral but highly marginal examples to paint a white-washed picture that's quite far from reality. In reality, it's not about the clothes. Muslim men base forcing women to cover up on "hard" facts of exactly the "sun orbits the earth" variety. If you did not think western, you would know that these men think of women as being both natur…

I call BS too. I've been to the Middle East several times. Uhm, "Women can swim!?" is about like one of those stories Europeans like to tell about Americans not knowing if Europeans have refrigerators. I'm also assuming you're referring to the Middle East from the tone, but let's not forget that the countries with the largest Muslim populations are Indonesia and the countries of the Indian subcontinent.

The views of women within various Islamic cultures varies widely and in some cases are quite disturbing, but the four countries with the largest Muslim populations (Indonesia, Pakistan, India and Bangladesh) have all had female presidents / prime ministers. There are other odd data points like women's suffrage having reached Iran a decade before Switzerland (1963 vs. 1973).

Re: Female Producers in Saudi Arabia: "Did you have to wear the black thing?"

#33
post #32
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ugh. Proponents of status quo always invoke tradition and use some attractively pastoral but highly marginal examples to paint a white-washed picture that's quite far from reality. In reality, it's not about the clothes. Muslim men base forcing women to cover up on "hard" facts of exactly the "sun orbits the earth" variety. If you did not think western, you would know that these men think of women as being both natur…

I call BS too. I've been to the Middle East several times. Uhm, "Women can swim!?" is about like one of those stories Europeans like to tell about Americans not knowing if Europeans have refrigerators. I'm also assuming you're referring to the Middle East from the tone, but let's not forget that the countries with the largest Muslim populations are Indonesia and the countries of the Indian subcontinent. The views of…

You get all kinds. The united states is a vary technologically advanced mostly christian society. Yet, if you look at the Anabaptist Christian denomination and think that's how most Americans live your kidding yourself. We might call them Amish, but the 227,000 Anabaptist Christian's hold fairly mainstream beliefs for the most part are are a fairly large slice of the American experience.

Talking about Islamic culture while ignoring the huge divide in our own country is missing something. We have our splinter groups and so do they. Once you start talking about 100+ million people you will get poets and serial killers, teachers, and racists. But we can lump them into one group and say they are good, or evil, or whatever because they are far away and we just don't know the true story.

PS: Think about a Gay man living in the deep south in 1950 now how well do you need to know them to have any idea how far the public / private divide runs with them. Now move that into a society where denouncing your faith can get you killed.

Re: Female Producers in Saudi Arabia: "Did you have to wear the black thing?"

#34
post #33
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I call BS too. I've been to the Middle East several times. Uhm, "Women can swim!?" is about like one of those stories Europeans like to tell about Americans not knowing if Europeans have refrigerators. I'm also assuming you're referring to the Middle East from the tone, but let's not forget that the countries with the largest Muslim populations are Indonesia and the countries of the Indian subcontinent. The views of…

You get all kinds. The united states is a vary technologically advanced mostly christian society. Yet, if you look at the Anabaptist Christian denomination and think that's how most Americans live your kidding yourself. We might call them Amish, but the 227,000 Anabaptist Christian's hold fairly mainstream beliefs for the most part are are a fairly large slice of the American experience. Talking about Islamic culture…

Your missing the main point.

The comment being responded to is BS. 'Even modorate muslims actually believe that womean sink.' That's pure BS. You might encounter it in end cases, isolated, uneducated, poor or ultra-religious sectors but on the whole it's BS.

It is just like Europeans (& others) citing Americans that think the world is flat or don't notice when you swap Russia & N. Korea on a map. "Even American geologists think the world is 5000 years old."

All these upmods haven't been delivered because the level of insight or quality of argument. It's because attacks of this kind are easy wins in 2009. It was a (probably made-up) anecdote: Even moderate muslims thinking that woman can't swim.

Just like I've said multiple times already, culture isn't sacred. Just because it's cultural doesn't mean something should be tolerated. But giving infinite rope to any 'muslim women are oppressed' line is garbage. All up, dress codes are down the list of worries.

Re: Female Producers in Saudi Arabia: "Did you have to wear the black thing?"

#35
post #25
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've experienced a bit of muslim culture first-hand and it's not even close to the cutesy image you get from this article. The author sees herself as a culturally sensitive critical thinker ("before you think I drank the koolaid...") but she is far from it. Take her cliched argument about the advantages of abbaya. If completely covering one's face and body is so desirable, why are women, and only women, forced into i…

I often feel the same way when I here these sorts of arguments. But I think you're off the mark. Extolling the virtues of full body cover for women is quite like saying that working cotton fields is really good for blacks, what with all that fresh air and exercise. You didn't get the majority of blacks to stand up & say that they feel cotton fields are liberating & dignified. That is a major difference. In fact, wome…

> "You can't respond with the cliché brainwash argument either. Culture is always brainwash."

Your logic is bad.

I more-or-less agree that "culture is always brainwash." The logical follow-up is not, "Let's therefore accept all cultures that don't immediately, viscerally violate our sense of right and wrong"; it's, "Wow, culture is fundamentally really messed up! But I don't want to live in a society that eliminates it completely. How much messed-up-ness am I willing to endure to get the benefits of culture -- namely, consistency in what I'm expected to deal with every day, social stability, a sense of unity with my neighbors and countrymen, a sense of heritage, and various intangibles?"

> "I am saying we need to be careful of what we are criticising. A lot of cultural norms are always arbitrary."

So criticize all of them! The problem here is that you're working off the premise that our own cultural norms are somehow above critique, which is simply untrue.

However, I think that, even on close inspection, many of our culture's norms do more good than harm. I honestly think that most Americans would be (marginally) unhappier if it became culturally acceptable in America to walk naked in public (even if we let a generation pass so that there's no cultural shock) -- whereas I'm quite certain that at least a majority of people living in societies that force women to cover themselves and act subservient would be happier if their communities' cultural norms allowed women to act like women of first-world democracies. That's what distinguishes our cultural norms from theirs. And if any of our norms fail the shit test of "does it make life better?," for God's sake let's throw it out.

Re: Female Producers in Saudi Arabia: "Did you have to wear the black thing?"

#36
post #25
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've experienced a bit of muslim culture first-hand and it's not even close to the cutesy image you get from this article. The author sees herself as a culturally sensitive critical thinker ("before you think I drank the koolaid...") but she is far from it. Take her cliched argument about the advantages of abbaya. If completely covering one's face and body is so desirable, why are women, and only women, forced into i…

I often feel the same way when I here these sorts of arguments. But I think you're off the mark. Extolling the virtues of full body cover for women is quite like saying that working cotton fields is really good for blacks, what with all that fresh air and exercise. You didn't get the majority of blacks to stand up & say that they feel cotton fields are liberating & dignified. That is a major difference. In fact, wome…

The critical issue is not whether there exist people existing willingly in a state of oppression, but whether there exist people wanting to get out of it.

Re: Female Producers in Saudi Arabia: "Did you have to wear the black thing?"

#37
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But wasn't the influx of 14 year olds driven by general interest articles, which very slowly got less interesting and more general? How could that slow boil be prevented?

I think the 14 year olds were attracted by a sense of lawlessness, most visible in the long, highly editorialized titles and the trollish comments. It wasn't so much general interest articles that signalled the decline of Reddit as partisan political ones. I.e. articles that didn't merely involve politics, but were instances of it.

Actually I think it's the lack of moderation. Reddit was (is) very proud not to be moderated, and look where it got them.

I've seen you moderate submissions here, and I appreciate it.

Re: Female Producers in Saudi Arabia: "Did you have to wear the black thing?"

#38
post #32
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ugh. Proponents of status quo always invoke tradition and use some attractively pastoral but highly marginal examples to paint a white-washed picture that's quite far from reality. In reality, it's not about the clothes. Muslim men base forcing women to cover up on "hard" facts of exactly the "sun orbits the earth" variety. If you did not think western, you would know that these men think of women as being both natur…

I call BS too. I've been to the Middle East several times. Uhm, "Women can swim!?" is about like one of those stories Europeans like to tell about Americans not knowing if Europeans have refrigerators. I'm also assuming you're referring to the Middle East from the tone, but let's not forget that the countries with the largest Muslim populations are Indonesia and the countries of the Indian subcontinent. The views of…

[anecdote]

Just for you: in 1992, in Boise, Idaho, I was asked (by a 16 year old boy, a local) whether I knew what a TV remote control is, and he then proceeded to explain to me as well the miracle of video recording. I was 14 at the time.

I am western European.

[/anecdote]

Re: Female Producers in Saudi Arabia: "Did you have to wear the black thing?"

#39
post #30
post #15

And you know how all of them responded to women in charge? Great. Actually, they were a lot more than great. They were about the most warm, wonderful, welcoming group of people that you could possibly imagine. I've heard the opposite..not about Saudi Arabians, though. My mother was the boss of an Iranian immigrant, and he was apparently completely unable to respect instructions given by a woman. And we are not talkin…

"I don't know about Saudi Arabians, but I knew this Iranian guy..." Is about the cultural equivalent of saying: "I don't know about the British, but I knew this French guy..." Except probably more different. And that's just culturally. Politically Saudi Arabia is an order of magnitude more oppressive than Iran and women's rights are also similarly incomparable.

[deleted]

Re: Female Producers in Saudi Arabia: "Did you have to wear the black thing?"

#40
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I call BS too. I've been to the Middle East several times. Uhm, "Women can swim!?" is about like one of those stories Europeans like to tell about Americans not knowing if Europeans have refrigerators. I'm also assuming you're referring to the Middle East from the tone, but let's not forget that the countries with the largest Muslim populations are Indonesia and the countries of the Indian subcontinent. The views of…

[anecdote] Just for you: in 1992, in Boise, Idaho, I was asked (by a 16 year old boy, a local) whether I knew what a TV remote control is, and he then proceeded to explain to me as well the miracle of video recording. I was 14 at the time. I am western European. [/anecdote]

That's a pretty different case though since (a) you were kids, and (b) those were two things that had hit mass market success only about a decade before.
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