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Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

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Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#201

Post by dredmorbius »

aeturnum wrote: post #17

> We medicalize grief because we fear it. I think this is just incorrect. You are not obligated to seek treatment for most medical problems[1]. The point of medicalizing something is to draw a line between situations where it would be too soon for medical professionals to step in and when people enter a situation where they may need external help. One of the diagnostic criteria, which this article mentions, is that y…

Further: by defining the criteria under which a condition becomes medically treatable, other parts of the healthcare system, such as insurance (private or government-funded), treatment protocols, and the like, come into play. Individuals should they choose to seek treatment are then able to do so within a much larger system.

By making the criteria reasonably loose and readily met, such a definition also minimises the number of individuals who would benefit from treatment who are excluded from being able to do so. This would include those who are very much unable to function or face larger grief-related risks.

We medicalise grief not because we fear it, but because there are genuinely useful therapies which may be of use to some, and denying them that merely compounds suffering.

And yes, absolutely, grief ultimately is a lifelong experience. You never stop missing that which you've lost, so long as you have the capacities of memory, reason, and feeling. That is not what the clinical definition is about.

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#202

Post by catigula »

weregiraffe wrote: post #177
catigula wrote: post #97

>There’s no modern cultural framework for dealing with death Correct, secularism can't deal with death, it doesn't work.

Sure, only an imaginary friend can deal with death. /s

It's is immensely epistemically arrogant to so confidently opine on this topic when every single day you experience consciousness, which is impossible to explain at all using Physics and likely simply impossible to ever explain within that framework (Edward Witten, the greatest living Physicist, shares this belief).

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#204

Post by Balgair »

incr_me wrote: post #184
Balgair wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is a certain cowardice in how we deal with death in the contemporary west. It's because we have a dearth of true elders right now. Not in age, but in temperament and learning. I got interested in story telling during COVID and managed to find a great author (K.M. Weiland) that went in deep on the archetypes of story. Her hook was essentially: "What happens after the Hero's Journey/happily ever after?" And the…

I've always been averse to this sort of Jungian schema (it's a Freudian baggage I have -- Mourning and Melancholia has much value on the present topic!), but more and more I'm seeing how much wisdom was lost in the historic disavowal of myth and archetypal thought. Since having a child, my wife and I have been repeatedly stunned at how incapable our own parents are. I don't mean a mere absence of help with babysittin…

Parenthood is simultaneously saying about your own parents:

-How the hell did they do it?

And

- What the hell were they thinking?

I'll echo the frustrations you're having. I have the exact same ones with my own folks

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#205

Post by basisword »

I’m not sure I see a problem with that definition for disordered grief. To truly experience three of those every day one year on would be debilitating. Having the person pop into your thoughts regularly, forgetting they’re gone etc sounds like normal grief (which is also horrible but not debilitating). I guess I would look at it in the way that people feel depressed and then there are people that can’t get out of bed, keep themselves clean, or go to work. Both suck. One’s a serious clinical issue if it’s not improving.

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#206

Post by basisword »

pizzathyme wrote: post #33
graemep wrote: post #2

There is a problem with rigid medical definitions. There is a huge difference between the author of this, a young pregnant woman losing her husband, and say, something like a middle aged person losing an elderly parent (as I did earlier this year). Of course it will take her far longer to recover (if at all). I would guess her grief is not "disordered" though. As she says she functions - she works, she looks after he…

I'm so sorry for your loss. I agree with what you say about "disordered", the language is hostile. In a less morbid area, I feel the same way about ADHD - "attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder". For some people this is problematic, but others can function fine and happily with this. In those cases, why is it a "disorder"? Why can't it just be "how some people are"?

>> For some people this is problematic, but others can function fine and happily with this.

In that case I would say it’s not ADHD, which as its name suggests is disordered. If the ADH part isn’t negatively impacting your life why would it require a diagnosis?

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#207

Post by supportengineer »

donatj wrote: post #47

One of my best friends died 12 years ago in our late 20s. I know he is dead, and yet a couple times a month I think, "Oh, I haven't talked to him in a while, I should text him!" before my logical brain kicks in and lets me know the deal. There is a dumb part of me that wants to believe, "Oh, he probably faked his death to get out of debt." He was such a schemer, if anyone would, he would. It was an open casket funera…

I lost four close family members, including my parents in the last five years and so I know exactly what that urge feels like.

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#208

Post by bitexploder »

drivingmenuts wrote: post #81
donatj wrote: post #47

One of my best friends died 12 years ago in our late 20s. I know he is dead, and yet a couple times a month I think, "Oh, I haven't talked to him in a while, I should text him!" before my logical brain kicks in and lets me know the deal. There is a dumb part of me that wants to believe, "Oh, he probably faked his death to get out of debt." He was such a schemer, if anyone would, he would. It was an open casket funera…

My best friend of 25 years died 4 years ago and I still think of him at least once a week, wishing I could talk to him. It was almost a year before I could even talk about him without completely breaking down. I never once thought: "oh, this is a medical issue". It was just me having the same problems processing my grief that American men have because we're not raised to talk stuff out. Once I did start talking about…

Grief is a very difficult emotion and I like the analogy of it being a deep ocean. When you experience profound grief you are dropped almost immediately into that ocean. If it is your rodeo with grief you don’t know how to swim. You don’t know where you are. You are in an endless night of depth. You may not even know you are in the ocean at first. Your brain is simply drowning. Some constant in the mind’s universe has changed. Abruptly.

I don’t believe, completely in the narrative of American men not taking stuff out, but it is a factor. The underlying issue for not talking stuff out is ensuring you feel understood. That you are not alone in this experience. That grief is okay, normal. That you have been taught a life philosophy that encompasses grief. That it can exist without consuming all. It helps anchor these powerful emotions. There are other ways to achieve this, everyone will have their own strategies. I do think you have to have a philosophy and process to handle grief however you do it.

I believe in acknowledging grief and practicing Stoic style thinking to stay present. It really helps me to acknowledge the moment is precious. Wrenching on a car with a buddy. Sitting at the dinner table with your family. Acknowledge how special that is. That it won’t last forever. Cannot. Tell them and yourself how special it is. Visualize life without that moment anymore. Bring a little grief to the every day and present as a part of our human condition. It is okay! It is not spoiling the moment if you are using that emotion to fully experience the present.

Grief as many people experience and process it is almost always the past. Even simply acknowledging it as the powerful force in our mind can help tame it. Observe the grief so to speak, see it as an observer. I am glad you found your way. Everyone should think about grief and talk about it. Just part of us.

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#209

Post by tonymillion »

randycupertino wrote: post #174
drivingmenuts wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My best friend of 25 years died 4 years ago and I still think of him at least once a week, wishing I could talk to him. It was almost a year before I could even talk about him without completely breaking down. I never once thought: "oh, this is a medical issue". It was just me having the same problems processing my grief that American men have because we're not raised to talk stuff out. Once I did start talking about…

I still randomly gmail my dear beloved best friend who died of melanoma 18 years ago. It goes into the ether. I hope gmail doesn't reassign his account to someone else for inactivity, they will get my "thinking of you, miss you, this thing happened that you would have found hilarious" emails.

That actually happened with texts to a grandmothers phone number that was (eventually) reassigned.

https://www.the-independent.com/news/uk/home-news/family-sho...

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#210

Post by squigz »

catigula wrote: post #202
weregiraffe wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, only an imaginary friend can deal with death. /s

It's is immensely epistemically arrogant to so confidently opine on this topic when every single day you experience consciousness, which is impossible to explain at all using Physics and likely simply impossible to ever explain within that framework (Edward Witten, the greatest living Physicist, shares this belief).

It's also extraordinarily arrogant - and rude - to state that atheists cannot deal with death. Certainly they face it with far more bravery than, say, someone who believes people don't actually die but instead go to a magical place in the sky.
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